Nhs

[Sharkith]

Xest,

it probably better to leave it you still have produced no data. Just because a laptop has other uses does not mean that it is never used for work or that a fair bit of work is not done on it. You just do not know how much they are working which is why I took umbridge. No matter, you are of course always entitled to your views (and I still enjoy reading them) even if I still find the way you presented them in this thread thoroughly unconvincing.

Rather than turn this into a page full of references I think I will just have to agree to disagree on the shortage issue. There is still a shortage of teachers I am not so sure that things have improved much since 2002 when concerns where at their height. I am not aware of any reports that indicate that there is no longer any cause for concern in both primary and secondary teaching. You cite the competitive nature of the graduate sector in science and technology as a reason why there is a shortage in maths and science subjects - but surely this should tell you that teaching is simply no longer seen as an attractive option. Despite your opinion.

The reasons for this are no doubt complex and of course if you can direct me to rpeorts that say otherwise (OFSTED etc) then by all means do because I would find it interesting.

[Lieva]

So why then Xest is there a national shortage of teachers? If it is really that good - why are people not flocking to work there?

oooh i know

its cuz being a teacher you work with kids and kids are becoming more bratty with each generation
So either you put up with abuse from a little brat or get decked by the parent

[Xest]

it probably better to leave it you still have produced no data. Just because a laptop has other uses does not mean that it is never used for work or that a fair bit of work is not done on it. You just do not know how much they are working which is why I took umbridge.

What data do you expect me to produce, should I take a pen and paper with me and write down notes next time? Again you're simply making assumptions tinted by your bias on the subject, if there's no work documents on the machines which no longer come with floppy drives and only have DVD drives (no cd/dvd writing capabilities) and they aren't using any USB devices yet they have games and lots of personal stuff then again it doesn't take a genius to see what they use the laptop for. More obviously, if the laptop is paid for by taxpayers, why should they be using it for personal use at all? Particularly when that personal use regularly involves browsing the web at home on an insecure connection and getting their laptop smothered in spyware and viruses which then causes problems at school for them and sometimes for others.

I am not aware of any reports that indicate that there is no longer any cause for concern in both primary and secondary teaching.

On indicator I can tell you of for sure is that international students now have to pay international fees to do their PGCE for primary unless they're doing the "emergency" subjects, this didn't use to be the case a few years ago when the shortage was more of an issue.

You cite the competitive nature of the graduate sector in science and technology as a reason why there is a shortage in maths and science subjects - but surely this should tell you that teaching is simply no longer seen as an attractive option. Despite your opinion.

You seem to have misread what I said, this doesn't in any way show that teaching isn't attractive for some subjects and at primary level, only that other options are more attractive in key subjects. Depending on the subject a teacher chooses to train for they get given a welcome to teaching one off lump sum of cash, and depending on how desperately they need teachers for a particular subject, I think maths/science teachers get around £7k - £10k, whereas languages teachers may only get £3k and of course, primary teachers get no one off payment. Just because maths/science teachers are in short supply does not mean ALL teachers are in short supply - I told you already, primary is a completely different beast to secondary.

[Sharkith]

What data do you expect me to produce, should I take a pen and paper with me and write down notes next time?

the penny drops yes Xest I live in a world where you have to literally do this. If you don't then your only giving opinion and all I can say is that it carries very little weight with me.


Will talk about the final points later. NN

[Sharkith]

On indicator I can tell you of for sure is that international students now have to pay international fees to do their PGCE for primary unless they're doing the "emergency" subjects, this didn't use to be the case a few years ago when the shortage was more of an issue.

Ok so no real evidence. I thought so. We are not really sure - and yes in the future you could be right but ultimately just now there is not really any convincing evidence that teachers numbers are improving.

to have misread what I said, this doesn't in any way show that teaching isn't attractive for some subjects and at primary level, only that other options are more attractive in key subjects. Depending on the subject a teacher chooses to train for they get given a welcome to teaching one off lump sum of cash, and depending on how desperately they need teachers for a particular subject, I think maths/science teachers get around £7k - £10k, whereas languages teachers may only get £3k and of course, primary teachers get no one off payment. Just because maths/science teachers are in short supply does not mean ALL teachers are in short supply - I told you already, primary is a completely different beast to secondary.

I never said this was wrong. All I said was once more that no-one is very sure that the evidence supports your opinion. Hopefully you are right though because something had to be done. FYI I don't think that science is a good option anymore for undergraduates it is a very competitive field - maybe these grads will go for teaching? Maybe teaching can be presented as a viable career option? Maybe you will be there giving them a free laptop hoping that they think this is a great deal .

[Heta]

the penny drops yes Xest I live in a world where you have to literally do this. If you don't then your only giving opinion and all I can say is that it carries very little weight with me.


Will talk about the final points later. NN

yelling "prove it" over and over ain't much defence either. At least it carries little weight for me


this is almost like watching a christian and a atheist discussing if god exists or if he doesn't

[Sharkith]

[quote="Heta"]yelling "prove it" over and over ain't much defence either. At least it carries little weight for me ]

defence for what Heta? Xest made some very good comments about an ill thought out policy but intermingled with that was a pop at a group of the workforce who appear to get it easy and who apparently misuse what is given to them. All I asked for was a resonable standard of proof for that its not really very fair to take that pop based on the experience of 171 schools. Its just not enough either way. Sure it might be a good reason to go do the evaluation but it in no way backs up what was said about the teachers.

Saying that the evidence could be found is a different problem - wouldn't it be easier to drop the comments and focus on the policy?

So I don't think I am really defending anything, some teachers may have misused the initiative but we don't really know if as a whole this is typical behaviour.

Its like everything else our current Government do. They get a bright idea roll it out Nationally without any form of evaluation - just because it sounds cool to be able to say "Hey! we have given every teacher a lap top!"

Of course I have been banging on a bit

[Xest]

the penny drops yes Xest I live in a world where you have to literally do this. If you don't then your only giving opinion and all I can say is that it carries very little weight with me.

Point is, like it or not, the fact I've been round every single school in a decent sized catchment area and seen the majority of laptops misused makes me a thousand times more qualified to talk about the subject than you. Just because I haven't written down everything, because well, it's just not something any normal person would do doesn't mean it's just my opinion - it's not opinion whatsoever, it's still fact, the real issue is that you don't want to beleive me, not whether it's true or not. How exactly would me taking notes make my point anymore valid in the first place? Even if I wrote everything down you'd still undoubtedly choose not to beleive me and say they were made up so they would offer no validity whatsoever over me telling you what I've seen as I have done already.

Ok so no real evidence. I thought so. We are not really sure - and yes in the future you could be right but ultimately just now there is not really any convincing evidence that teachers numbers are improving.

Sigh, I didn't really want to bring it up but my Dad is a cheif education officer so I'm well aware of the stats thank you very much. In fact, with the FOI act now in, you can probably get hold of the stats yourself now if you want to, I doubt they're under lock and key for any reason. Also, as for evidence, I just found this article, it's slightly out of date, it's from the end of last year - but the pattern has continued through to this year anyhow:

Student teacher numbers soar again
Student teacher numbers have risen to another record high, figures from the Teacher Training Agency show. More than 41,000 people are expected to start training this academic year, although key subjects have still been left with hundreds of unfilled places. Last year's total of 40,624 had set a new record, while the number in mainstream training at universities and colleges alone was the highest since 1975. Ralph Tabberer, the TTA's Chief Executive, said: "We are getting a lot more career changers: teaching has become the second career of choice. There are more than 13,000 people aged over 30. That is a huge achievement." Despite the high numbers, 5% of places remained unfilled at the start of the autumn term. Student teachers shunned some key subjects, with modern languages the worst affected, as numbers fell by 10%.

(TES, 26 November 2004)

As you can see and as I've already said - it's certain subjects that are losing out, maths, sciences and modern languages. Or are you just not going to beleive the TES now too ?

All I asked for was a resonable standard of proof for that its not really very fair to take that pop based on the experience of 171 schools. Its just not enough either way. Sure it might be a good reason to go do the evaluation but it in no way backs up what was said about the teachers.

Are you suggesting that one particular large catchment area of 171 schools is particularly prone to teachers misusing there laptops and the trend is completely different in the rest of the country? As you keep putting it, where is your evidence that this area is prone to laptop misuse? More to the point, why would a single area even have this kind of issue over any other? Whilst you might expect something like this to spread through one school or so, there's absolutely no logical reason why laptop misuse would spead through a single catchment area then stop.

You keep asking me evidence and whilst what I've provided isn't terribly brilliant evidence, because well, funnily enough there aren't any official studies about teacher laptop useage habits and so on, but where is your evidence on the contrary? Have you been to a sample of over 100 schools and spoken to thousands of teachers therefore putting you in a position to comment on the subject? Thought not. Perhaps you're just being overly defensive without any real evidence yourself because your sister is a teacher?

[Hatsepsut]

my opinion on heroin addicts will never change, if thats what you meant, Hatseput.
people know the risks involved (or if they don't, they should have gone to school) with taking an addictive drug - and should have the foresight to realise taking one, such as heroin, is going to damage your body, mind, and family.

Addiction is a disease and saying "Ok, you made the mistake to try it, now die", is inhumane. Your entire reasoning is inhumane. Basically what you're saying is every individual should be punished for his/her mistakes nomatter what the circumstances even if the punishment be death and the rest of us should stand around and point and say "I told you so". That's just sick.

[ambera]

Basically what you're saying is every individual should be punished for his/her mistakes nomatter what the circumstances even if the punishment be death and the rest of us should stand around and point and say "I told you so".

It's also impossible to judge when something is the consequence of someone's judgement (or even free will if you want to get philosophical) or of circumstances. Do we, as has been suggested, refuse treatment to drug addicts and smokers, knowing that the debate about the causes of addiction is very much open? What about people who drink heavily (and how much is heavily? Who decides?) What about sexually transmitted diseases, do we ignore those? Someone may have been promiscuous so their STD could be their fault - but if it's not treated you are looking at another 10, or 100, or 1000 people with STD's down the line.

As for what constitutes necessary vs. elective procedures, that's very loaded as well. We spend a huge amount of money giving people fertility treatment for example. Those people will not die if they don't have babies. But the majority of people probably support their right to have babies, just as I would support Banana's right to be able to see properly.

Some people do no doubt abuse the system. But to seperate out the abusers from those in genuine need isn't realistically possible without risking denial of treatment to the genuinely ill & unfortunate.

A society should always be judged on how it treats it's most vulnerable members; the old, the young, the sick, the poor, the disenfranchised. I don't want to live in a society that puts the wealth of majority above the health of the poorest people.