Next expansion.

Post by **Lieva** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:31 pm

catacombs was the best content wise
toa was the best zonewise
imo

<ankh> · Post by **<ankh>** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:58 pm

Gandelf wrote:But the other side of the coin... If they redesigned the game, updating all the graphics, improving the gameplay and classes, but in keeping with the Classic version, how many lost players would come back and play it again?

In other words, have we lost more players because the game isn't what it used to be as a result of all the expansions.

It's interesting to note that Blizzard aren't chucking out expansions every 5 minutes for WoW, yet they are seeing no decline in player numbers. I know there is a WoW expansion on the cards soon, but my guess is that one of the reasons why it's so popular is because the game hasn't been messed around with... certainly not as much as DAoC has been interfered with!

Check what happened to SW Galaxies after they tried to redesign it. They lost like 100k players or more..think its worth risking it?
As Genedril said, wow isnt that old - im 100% sure it will get loads of expansions to.
Reason why WoW is so popular isnt cos they arent releasing expansions "every 5 minutes" - it's cos it had a huge fanbase long before it was even released due to blizzards success with the warcraft rts. Imo you can't even compare it to WoW as you havent even seen the impact of their first expansion yet, so its not really fair to compare with it.

/Ankh

Cernos · Post by **Cernos** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:15 pm

Gandelf wrote:But the other side of the coin... If they redesigned the game, updating all the graphics, improving the gameplay and classes, but in keeping with the Classic version, how many lost players would come back and play it again?

I'd only come back for a brand new DAOC II. I agree with the overly-patched inner tube analogy. DAOC needs a fresh slate, new graphics engine, learn from past mistakes, take the best features forward and implement some new features we all want to see.

But that's not going to happen. Essentially Warhammer 40k will be DAOC II in all but theme, let's hope they get it right.

In other words, have we lost more players because the game isn't what it used to be as a result of all the expansions.

I think it's more the case that as the number of expansions rises it becomes increasingly difficult for new (and long retired) players to join the game, working out which expansions are essential and which they can get by without, learning all the new features etc. With so many expansions to buy and get to grips with, new players will be rare and so the game can only steadily wither.

New content is essential to keep a game alive but yearly paid expansions is too frequent. And an expansion that offers the purchaser significant advantages over those without the expansion is nothing other than a marketing excercise which will eventually come back to bite you when the situation gets out of control and you have to start releasing underwhelming expansions that don't offer much (i.e. DR which should have been free).

It's interesting to note that Blizzard aren't chucking out expansions every 5 minutes for WoW, yet they are seeing no decline in player numbers. I know there is a WoW expansion on the cards soon

Blizzard seem to be on an 18-month paid expansion cycle and have released a lot of new free content in patches. This seems a better approach though whether it's a long term policy remains to be seen. Interestingly the new expansion will only add two new player races, no new classes. I think where DAOC started to go tits up was with the introduction of new (and usually overpowered) classes and abilities.

but my guess is that one of the reasons why it's so popular is because the game hasn't been messed around with... certainly not as much as DAoC has been interfered with!

WoW is popular for all sorts of reasons and game balance probably isn't one of the stronger ones. The game has been messed around with a fair bit (especially where PvP is concerned) but nothing on a scale of the balance merry-go-round DAOC suffers from.

Gandelf · Post by **Gandelf** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:23 pm

Genedril wrote:Think if they went backwards you'd see a lot of complaints. If you want to be in keeping with classic you've just lost 10% spell pierce, 10% cast speed for starters. If you're really going classic (as in old DAoC not 'classic servers) you've just lost your increased Dex too.

...but that's my point. It's all relative. Yes, the expansions have increased caps, casting speeds, introduced new abilities etc, but to all classes in fairly equal measure. So, classes are still evenly matched. If the game got rid of all those "improvements" (if that's what you can really call them) and had things as they were, the classes would still be evenly matched.

Just look at all the rog drops that were once sought after... no-one wants them anymore. The only difference the new items make is when you have them and your opponent doesn't. That is bad for the game (and especially new players), because they feel as if they can't compete unless they go after all those new items, quest rewards, MLs etc. etc, so they give up and don't play the game.

Yes, I'd lose my dex cap increase, but going back would also give me Mastery of the Art again, which was much better and MoC wouldn't be nerfed and I'd be able train AoM again. Which proves my point, things have really stayed the same, even though they've changed.

Gandelf · Post by **Gandelf** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:27 pm

Cernos wrote:The game has been messed around with a fair bit (especially where PvP is concerned) but nothing on a scale of the balance merry-go-round DAOC suffers from.

I like that expression. The Magic Roundabout.

Koila · Post by **Koila** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:23 pm

U c what happens...i turn my back for 1 week to take a vacation..i come back and disaster strikes..what the hell do they mean a new expansion?!? this had better be a joke

Genedril · Post by **Genedril** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:03 am

Gandelf wrote:...but that's my point. It's all relative. Yes, the expansions have increased caps, casting speeds, introduced new abilities etc, but to all classes in fairly equal measure. So, classes are still evenly matched. If the game got rid of all those "improvements" (if that's what you can really call them) and had things as they were, the classes would still be evenly matched.

But they're not - I think any tank or supprt classes would be only to happy to go back to this state that you suggest. Tanks (bar fixed group ones) struggle in the modern zerg fest. Support classes (well no one plays them in a zerg) have range issues & the amount of damage kicked out by opposition casters to deal with. Mythic have thrown a lot of bones towards primary support just because of the damage that people were on the recieving end of couldn't be healed that effectively. Running in a guild group it's now imperative that I call for heals (unless I'm on the hero) before I start taking damage - as soon as I'm stunned or debuffed I've got to ask for pre-healing else the support will not keep up.

Gandelf wrote:Just look at all the rog drops that were once sought after... no-one wants them anymore. The only difference the new items make is when you have them and your opponent doesn't. That is bad for the game (and especially new players), because they feel as if they can't compete unless they go after all those new items, quest rewards, MLs etc. etc, so they give up and don't play the game.

RoG drops are, quite simply, bad for templates. Once they're broken your template is gone. Fine if you can squeeze one in that has no effect on your stats - otherwise it's rebuild your template when it dies. You can go out without an uber-special template & compete as long as you don't play like a fool. Yes the toys are nice when you're facing a fixed group of the same realm rank or above as they may have them, but you can live without most of them if you think about what you're doing.

Gandelf wrote:Yes, I'd lose my dex cap increase, but going back would also give me Mastery of the Art again, which was much better and MoC wouldn't be nerfed and I'd be able train AoM again. Which proves my point, things have really stayed the same, even though they've changed.

Mastery of the Art is not going to compensate for dex & int cap decrease, & spell piercing, spell damage & spell range going. MoC is hardly nerfed atm (there should be a penalty for standing there & pressing MoC & nuking if you ask me) & just imagine what those MoC lifetappers would be doing when using it.

If you think nothings changed then why do you want to change it back - sounds like you've just argued against you first point & negated the whole point of what you posted if you ask me.

Cernos is right, you'll not be getting a full rebuild because of Warhammer. Ankh's points about WoW's popularity also stand - it's a game that a lot of people recognise without having played a MMORPG before & the player-base of WoW reflects this.

Tuorin · Post by **Tuorin** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:10 am

Tbh us old scroats hate anything that means we have to invest time into the game to get to a semi viable level playing field. Ultimately daoc over time eeks away at your natural resilience and makes it more and more unforgiving to play casually. Whilst some of the changes are good in the sense its all made easier to get to the appropriate level, at the end of the day its still more grind. Grind = time = not every has the luxury of, so when a new expansion comes along there is bound to be doubt.

Its difficult to please all however, and those with the ability, mainly time to invest gain the greater reward when new expansions come along. It also for the sake of the game has to progress and its seen that expansions offer natural progression. It however always feel like they don't.

Those long in the tooth old scroats or former players/retirees generally find it much tougher to bypass the "do i put in the necessary effort and do i have the time to or not" situation. With the goalposts and balances continually changing, especially new classes taking ages to fix, it becomes less and less likely that the older players may return. The playerbase shrinks and the game becomes less rewarding.

A classic example is the bonedancer class and why it still hasn't been addressed, does anyone know why? Nope, there ya go. It simply isn't balanced in any way either solo or in 8man. Warlocks dont bother, they may kill one of you but they die after, kinda useless. Bainshee is a hopeless soloing class unless your opponent doesnt have moc/qc nearsight/mez/1500 root and is not a meleer. Its had how many nerfs now? faoe falloff, wall damage, taunt nerfed, ablative nerfed twice, yet it still aint a bd!

Gandelf · Post by **Gandelf** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:19 pm

Genedril wrote:If you think nothings changed then why do you want to change it back - sounds like you've just argued against you first point & negated the whole point of what you posted if you ask me.

It has and it hasn't changed. For example, to prove my point, range bonus... this is a change from the Classic days. You have up to 10% extra range, but because players from each realm can have that extra 10%, no-one has an advantage, so the difference is zero, i.e. it hasn't changed. The range has changed, but the advantage hasn't. So why bother to introduce items that give range? Might as well not have bothered! The net result is the same.

Things were much simpler and evenly matched back in "the good old days". Can you remember some of the fights near the old milegates? They used to last a lot longer and were more fun and evenly matched. No PS nodes to disadvantage stealthers, no ML abilities at all in fact! It's all over too quickly nowadays. Where's the fun in that?

I'd willingly sacrifice all the bonuses that we now have to have the game as it used to be. Even FoP!

ROG drops may be less desirable, but they were still sought after back then. Also, artefacts and some of the new items have taken away a lot of business for crafters. Before, players would have all their armour and weapons crafted and imbued and use ROGs for the slots that could not be crafted. Now, a crafter is lucky to get an order for 4 items.

Fair enough, some improvements are welcome, like being able to port to keeps etc. They could keep that sort of improvement.

What Mythic should have done is make the Classic servers, truly Classic/SI. No ToA, Catas or DR. No NF, but keep player housing.

<ankh> · Post by **<ankh>** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:54 pm

Gandelf wrote:It has and it hasn't changed. For example, to prove my point, range bonus... this is a change from the Classic days. You have up to 10% extra range, but because players from each realm can have that extra 10%, no-one has an advantage, so the difference is zero, i.e. it hasn't changed. The range has changed, but the advantage hasn't. So why bother to introduce items that give range? Might as well not have bothered! The net result is the same.

They can, but not everyone does. Thats the difference, there are more options now on how you want Your character.
Im pretty sure the expansions are one of the reasons why daoc managed to live on (even though there would still be players left anyway).
I know I prefer to increase the difficulty in a game and not just play "easy mode" all the time. The more options I get - the more interesting the game feels.

/Ankh