Petition against car tracking

[<ankh>]

actually no - hes just repetative.

Am I? I was being serious.. 1.4mil is *nothing*. I can assure you that most of them signed up just cos they heard the words "will cost you.." and they didnt bother to read the rest.

/Ankh

[Lairiodd]

One of the big issues with something like this is that it is a major method for the government to generate revenue. Once they have a system like that in place, what are the odds of them not getting tempted ?

Also, there is the fact that it moves the country slightly toward a police state as now the government will know where everyone goes.

This could be solved by basing the system on pre-paid cards of some kind. You could "top-up" your transmitter in your car by entering a code like a mobile phone top-up. You could buy a transmitter anywhere and the top up cards like you buy mobile phone top-up cards. The transmitter would then be scanned only when you travel along a road that is under toll ... erm congestion tax.

The amount of tax/toll they can get away with (before people start switching to other methods) is determined by how much congestion there is.

Since the government will likely see this as a money source (that they can publically say is for the public good), this creates an incentive to not build any new roads in order to cause congestion so that they can tax it.

[Lieva]

Am I? I was being serious.. 1.4mil is *nothing*. I can assure you that most of them signed up just cos they heard the words "will cost you.." and they didnt bother to read the rest.

/Ankh

im saying repetative

because as soon as you see the username Gandelf the word Religion are being typed by you.
Im thinking its some type of ocd

[Lieva]

Am I? I was being serious.. 1.4mil is *nothing*. I can assure you that most of them signed up just cos they heard the words "will cost you.." and they didnt bother to read the rest.

/Ankh

you are correct tho
most people are like sheep.
unfortunatly its the sheep that let idiotic as well as just causes go through.

then again, who are we to judge what is idiotic and what is just..besides common sence i mean

[OohhoO]

One of the big issues with something like this is that it is a major method for the government to generate revenue.

If they're effectively creating a new form of taxation, surely they must balance this by decreasing various other forms of taxation? Otherwise they're effectively decreasing the amount of available cash in peoples pockets, which would be bad for consumption & therefore the economy.

Also, there is the fact that it moves the country slightly toward a police state as now the government will know where everyone goes.

This would worry me too tbh. In fact I think this kind of thing would be illegal in Switzerland due to our laws on privacy & data & personal rights. Why not just plant a chip in peoples skulls so you can know where they are & what they're thinking & stimulate corrective behaviour before they even do anything wrong?
Big Brother's watching you!

[Lieva]

Why not just plant a chip in peoples skulls so you can know where they are & what they're thinking & stimulate corrective behaviour before they even do anything wrong?
Big Brother's watching you!

minority report!!!

seriously tho.
if the chips prevent car burglary would be good. *But* i dont think it will...

[Takitothemacs]

This petition is for UK citizens only. The UK Government is thinking of taxing motorists according to how many miles they travel. The following is a link to a petition for those who object to such a scheme being introduced.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/

Only just picked up on this but..... given that 80p in every pound we spend on fuel is tax.... and it takes fuel to cover mileage arent we already taxed for doing more mileage?

Lets take a look at an average car owner in the London area and see how and when they get taxed...

They go to work and earn their money... getting Taxed on their earnings.
They manage to save a few pennies here and there to save up to buy themselves a car... they get taxed on their savings (not talking about ISA type savings here)
When they shell out for their car they get taxed 17.5% of the value of their car.
Before they drive their car they need to spend money on road tax, insurance and petrol... all three of which are taxed
Generally speaking in London it costs to park anywhere even outside your own house/flat (when I lived in Fulham it was £360 per annum to park outside my house and no guarantee of a space) now where I live it is part of the service charge etc and costs a portion of the £800 but we do get a dedicated space.
In the event that the car has to be used during the week in the city there is an additional charge of £8 per day for conjestion charging
Minimum for a days parking in London is typically £10

Now lets take another look... why does someone in London need a car?

While I work in the city every day, there are times that I have to take computers/servers or other Kit to remote locations and transporting it by public transport is not practical let alone viable, my partner lives with me and works 30 miles away.. a commute that takes her 35 mins (going against the traffic each way) by car or if she takes the train/bus takes her close to 2 hours including changes and waiting time between trains because of connection times. At weekends we often travel to Peacehaven (east of Brighton on the south coast) to Sam's parents, from Essex where we live and by car that trip is 55 mins to 70 mins usually. It costs the two of us no more than £15 in fuel but would cost us £30 each to get there and back and in addition to that would take us close to 4 hours to make that trip. (one way)

God forbid we wanted to visit my parents in Irthlingborough.... no telling how long that journey would take but undoubtedly as long if not longer and would cost even more... my brother while close to them (45 mins by car) would involve them coming into london and back out by public transport costing them a small fortune to visit each other.

You cannot say that for the average person with family and friends spread around it is easily possible, economic and achieveably in a reasonable timeframe to get around in this country.

I would rather they scrapped road tax and increased the tax on Fuel, binned the conjestion charge and essentially limit the taxation on vehicles to a pay as you drive method where the only tax paid is that on fuel... in my belief that would be fair.

[<ankh>]

im saying repetative

because as soon as you see the username Gandelf the word Religion are being typed by you.
Im thinking its some type of ocd

I knew that, but its not aimed at him this time.

[Takitothemacs]

just looking into the journey details from where I live to Irthlingborough... no train station there...

30 mins to get to barking by Bus
2H 09 mins to get from Barking to Kettering by train including 2 stops
Apparently (cant find the details online so called someone that knows) the bus journey from kettering to irthlingborough takes close to 2 hours and would then involve a 30 minute walk to my parents house as they live a little off the bus route.

so... £2 for the bus each, each way - £8.00
£76 for the off peak return rail ticket each - £154.00
and from then... the bus from kettering to Irthlingborough via the interchange - £14.00 each, each way - £56.00

£218 return journey lasting approx 10H 40 mins

alternative 4 hours costing £40 fuel for the round trip in the car.

[Ovi]

Only just picked up on this but..... given that 80p in every pound we spend on fuel is tax.... and it takes fuel to cover mileage arent we already taxed for doing more mileage?

Lets take a look at an average car owner in the London area and see how and when they get taxed...

They go to work and earn their money... getting Taxed on their earnings.
They manage to save a few pennies here and there to save up to buy themselves a car... they get taxed on their savings (not talking about ISA type savings here)
When they shell out for their car they get taxed 17.5% of the value of their car.
Before they drive their car they need to spend money on road tax, insurance and petrol... all three of which are taxed
Generally speaking in London it costs to park anywhere even outside your own house/flat (when I lived in Fulham it was £360 per annum to park outside my house and no guarantee of a space) now where I live it is part of the service charge etc and costs a portion of the £800 but we do get a dedicated space.
In the event that the car has to be used during the week in the city there is an additional charge of £8 per day for conjestion charging
Minimum for a days parking in London is typically £10

Now lets take another look... why does someone in London need a car?

While I work in the city every day, there are times that I have to take computers/servers or other Kit to remote locations and transporting it by public transport is not practical let alone viable, my partner lives with me and works 30 miles away.. a commute that takes her 35 mins (going against the traffic each way) by car or if she takes the train/bus takes her close to 2 hours including changes and waiting time between trains because of connection times. At weekends we often travel to Peacehaven (east of Brighton on the south coast) to Sam's parents, from Essex where we live and by car that trip is 55 mins to 70 mins usually. It costs the two of us no more than £15 in fuel but would cost us £30 each to get there and back and in addition to that would take us close to 4 hours to make that trip. (one way)

God forbid we wanted to visit my parents in Irthlingborough.... no telling how long that journey would take but undoubtedly as long if not longer and would cost even more... my brother while close to them (45 mins by car) would involve them coming into london and back out by public transport costing them a small fortune to visit each other.

You cannot say that for the average person with family and friends spread around it is easily possible, economic and achieveably in a reasonable timeframe to get around in this country.

I would rather they scrapped road tax and increased the tax on Fuel, binned the conjestion charge and essentially limit the taxation on vehicles to a pay as you drive method where the only tax paid is that on fuel... in my belief that would be fair.

I think Xest already addressed most of the points you made.

If you are visiting friends and relatives then the extra costs of those trips would be small, providing you do it out of peak time. That's an incentive to make the trip out of peak time, which not only helps lesson the environmental impact but also reduces wasted time being stuck in traffic.

If you have to use the car in the week for taking computers/servers to remote locations then the company should cover the costs, it is then down to business to decide whether they get value from paying the charge. Without the charges businesses don't care.

Taxing Fuel isn't the best approach as it only makes allowance for distance travelled and not time and location, which in some cases are more important.

The idea of the tax is to give a more realistic comparision to people about the costs of their journey's by changing an indirect cost to a direct cost. Using your example of visiting Sam's parents, it might currently cost you £15 but that does not include the effects on the environment. If it is judged the cost to the environment (i.e. the extra tax) is £15 then both options cost the same, but if it costs £30 then it makes using the car £15 dearer, but is quicker. It is then your choice, spend more and do more environmental damage by using the car but arrive quicker, or pay less and do less environmental damage but take longer.