Petition against car tracking

[Xest]

hem, but isnt it included already in the fuel price?
that's how it should work imo, and works in many countries...
u travel more, u buy more fuel, u pay more taxes...

Kinda, my original comment was a somewhat simplified version of the discussion in response to Gandelf's over-simplified original comment that ignored what the plans are really designed to achieve in an attempt to make it look like a more unfair idea than it really is. The idea is that it isn't entirely how much people travel but where people travel. Fuel taxes only cover the distance portion of the problem, not the issue of people needlessly driving in congested areas, causing further congestion. Essentially the proposal has two targets:

1) Those who drive too far needlessly, i.e. people driving from London to say, Edinburgh - it's wasteful in terms of fuel, particularly when oil isn't an unlimited resource as well as the pollution issue. It's much easier, more environmentally friendly and quicker to just jump on a train. As an example here, I can get a Leeds to London Kings Cross fare for £8.45, the train is once every 30mins and takes 2hrs to get there. In a car you'd be looking at far more cost in petrol and 4hrs traveling for the same journey. This problem is solved by fuel taxes.

2) Those who drive in congested areas. Say a school is based in the centre of London and the family lives in the centre of London. Say the mother drives her kids to school, which takes 30minutes - 1hr because of major congestion problems, there's no reason these kids couldn't have caught the train or a bus that uses a bus-only lane and got their quicker. This is solved by vehicle tracking taxes.

Either way BOTH journeys would be a heck of alot longer than the 15mins it takes in my car.

Indeed, but if it only takes you 15minutes by car then this new set of proposals shouldn't bother you anyway because you a) Clearly don't travel that far and hence aren't effected by point 1 above and b) Clearly don't drive in a congested area and hence wont be suffering the extra costs of driving in a congested area that vehicle tracking will achieve.

What if you have elderly relatives who live many miles away? Supposing one of them falls seriously ill and you have to travel to them? Is it right that you should be charged say £1.50 a mile to go on that journey?

Then get a fucking train. Contrary to popular whine, the UK actually has a fantastic train system, which in many cases where people travel into big cities to go to work is far faster than driving. I can travel to Leeds for £2.60 return to get into work on the train and it takes 15minutes, by car due to congestion it'd take a good 1hour+ and cost more in petrol. I'm not going to pretend our bus system is that great of course, whilst it's not bad inner city it's dire for rural areas but that's largely irrelevant here because vehicle tracking is designed to charge people more for using congested areas, hence traveling 50miles to rural areas probably isn't going to cost you as much as traveling 5miles in the centre of London as a simple example. The fact is most people drive out of sheer laziness, it's easier to walk out your door and jump in your car than it is to wait for a train and I really have little sympathy for lazy people.

No, road tracking charges are not the answer and so far, over 1.4 Million people believe so to according to the petition. They can't all be wrong.

Yes but, there's 58.6million that haven't signed. Ignoring the flaws, weaknesses and hence potential inaccuracy of online polling systems of course.

It's all about changing people's attitudes and mindsets, unfortunately people are just too lazy and stubborn to change the way they live and work unless there's an incentive to do so, this proposal by the government is just that incentive. Do you really need to travel London to Edinburgh? Can't you just use video conferencing? Do your staff all really have to travel into work, can't some of them just work from home? Look at all the mothers who have SUVs just to run their kids the 5minute journey to school and back, what the hell happened to walking? Some of my best memories were walking home from school on summers days, stopping by the newsagents to grab some sweets and pissing around in the park on the way home - sure it took me 2hrs to do the 6mile walk, often longer if I stopped in the park etc. but it was fun and I don't recall any shortage of time playing computer games, watching TV and doing my homework when I used to do that either. In terms of the environment we all need to cut down on the amount we pollute, but it's just not that high on most people's agendas - I don't think it's so wrong for the government to make people stop, think and reconsider their laziness. Who knows, it may even make people in the UK more productive in general - a walk to work certainly wakes you up more than driving to work for example.

[<ankh>]

..imo if you get your dreamjob in another town - move there.

/Ankh

[Gandelf]

Sure they can, there are billions of religious people and they are wrong too ]/Ankh[/B]

Nice try!

[<ankh>]

Nice try? Nope, its the truth.

/Ankh

[Xest]

Yeah Ankh has a point, it wasn't really a try, more a fact.

[Ovi]

Well I did write a reply, but seems Xest beat me to it, and much better than my post, so no more to say really

[OohhoO]

How would this affect people travelling to the UK by car?
Tourists...
Channel Tunnel...
etc
I drive from Switzerland to visit my parents in S.W.Wales for 3 weeks most summers. It would be practically impossible without the car tbh.
Petrol already costs twice as much in the UK as it does in Switzerland & the difference is all tax.

[Xest]

I'd be surprised if they tracked tourists vehicles tbh, most countries like to encourage tourism. When I was in Canada the last few weeks they had a tourist incentive program that has let me claim back all government (but not provincial other than Ontario) taxes on purchases and hotel costs - I'd imagine we'd have a similar tourist incentive program on tracking tourist vehicles, i.e. we wouldn't track them.

[Gandelf]

Then get a ****ing train.

What trains? The rail network is by and large non-existent in most of the UK. What's the point of catching a train that's 20 miles from where you need to get to? You then have to catch a bus or hire a taxi. In Stoke, we used to have dozens of smaller train stations, but not anymore... they're either closed down, demolished or trains no longer stop at them. There is only one main station now.

You use London as an example, but you have to remember that London has the public transport and frequency of services to make things easier and less costly for motorists who wish to ditch using their cars. I live in Stoke and the public transport system is utter crap. The bus routes are so indirect and go all around the side streets, adding 30mins to 1 hour to each journey. They use the low capacity buses, so half the passengers end up standing. The service is infrequent and even non existent after 6pm and a lot of the time you have to change buses. E.g. it's 8 miles from my house to work. There is a major "A" road from my home to my place of work. Do buses go directly? Do they heck! First I have to catch one bus, change to another after 4 miles and neither of them are direct, but go around all the housing estates. I can't even buy one ticket to cover the whole journey and they no longer do return tickets.

The public transport system needs to be vastly improved across the whole country before people will willingly use it.

Yes but, there's 58.6million that haven't signed.

Then it's up to them to create a counter-petition if they feel so strongly about it. How many of those 58.6 million people might vote against the Government's proposal, but haven't done so already... probably another million or two at least.

It's not that I'm opposed to the Government doing something, but I don't think that tracking is the answer. There are other ways. The root of the problem is that anyone can own a car. Therefore, the best solution is to restrict who can drive them. Maybe raise the age where you can drive to 18 or even 21? Maybe restrict the number of vehicles per household? Maybe limit the number of licences?

The other thing you have to remember is that cars have meant that people can shop at supermarkets. All the small corner shops and shops in the village or high street of a small town have been forced to close because supermarkets have put them out of business. If people can't do their weekly shop using their car, how are they going to do it? Carry loads of bags on the bus or train... hmmm... defrosting fish, ice-cream etc.
Can we really expect people to wait years for all those little shops to open again? I think not!

The Government hasn't even said that delivery vehicles and trade vehicles will be exempt. So prices of goods and services will increase, so it's not just motorists who will be hit! It will be the elderly and the out of work too!

It's totally wrong. Something has to be done yes, but tracking is not the answer.

[OohhoO]

I can fully appreciate the need to reduce environmentally damaging mobility, but it seems strange that UK governments spent 20-30 years encouraging private mobility & demolishing public transport only to suddenly turn round & punish people for faithfully following successive governments policies, when what we really need are new forms of mobility which aren't environmentally damaging.