Exam Question

[Elrandhir]

I guess a similar differential is the gap between realm ranks in RvR. Quite often we hear people commenting that they've been wiped by high RR enemies and so the other night when I came across a RR11 mid I was expecting a very quick death. However, on that night ML abilities that had previously been ignored were being used and I bested this guy. On that occasion the difference of 9 RRs didn't seem to be significant. So, I'm wondering what has changed? Not my class so could it be my understanding of the class and the skills I deploy that has made the difference? Or was I just darned lucky? Or are nightshades with ML10 now overpowered? I think not.

Actually I have never been that conserned about RR´s, but still if you have just started to RvR a char and face an RR10 char it aint to pleasant, if hes not someone who have bought his account and is totally useless in playing it ;D

[Xest]

There's no such thing as an overpowered class, only good and bad players.

Discuss.


My contention is that, if played properly, any class will appear overpowered when viewed by someone else who is not playing their own class to its maximum potential.

A character that has the right balance of skill specs, with suitably chosen artifacts, spell-crafted armour and experience of different game situations will appear to some, to be overpowered. However, what sets them apart from other classes are factors that the player can choose and can influence and the real advantage comes from player knowledge, not class imbalance.

Take the bainshee for example. With the right choice of mob, combination of spells and an understanding of when to use what in which circumstances the bainshee can deliver significant damage. However, get any one or more of those things wrong and the bainshee is nothing more than a squidgy cloth-wearing caster who goes down quicker than Stockport County.

Recently (not naming people or places or servers) I witnessed a bainshee in the frontiers and not once did I see the aoe root deployed or the frontal arc dd engaged. Did not also see the aoe bolt used and instead all the player seemed to use was the single mob dd shout. That bainshee was not overpowering anything in RvR so I couldn't help wondering if I was witnessing a cursed forest power-levelled toon being controlled by someone who had no idea about the full range and utility the class had to offer.

So, back to the original point - is there such a thing as overpowered or is it just the difference between good and bad players?

A debating point for peeps to consider

I think you have to define it such that for example if you take two players of exactly equal skill using chars of exactly equal realm rank, ML and with exactly equal equipment levels and one class consistently comes out on top of the majority of other classes - that class is overpowered, and skill has nothing to do with it. If the classes were balanced you'd see a close to 50% win ratio from each class in that situation.

As an example, a pre-1.75 lvl50 RR5, ML10, Fully twinked Warlock will beat 95% of other classes even if those classes also have lvl50, RR5, ML10 and are fully twinked and also assuming players of equal skill. Of course, taking further the example of warlocks the fact that it's down to class overpoweredness and not a player skill issue, the fact is that a warlock with the above setup will not only beat someone equal but will often beat someone better, again using a sorceror as our victim in the example:

Assuming an RR11 ML10, level 50, fully twinked, fully buffed sorceror played by an extremely skilled player pitched against an unskilled RR1, ML0, lvl50, unbuffed warlock the warlock will still beat the sorceror in the vast majority of fights and should have a 90% minimum win rate - under no circumstances can this be put down to anything other than the warlock just being downright overpowered. The problem is that with some classes even if the player is more skilled, better equipped and just outright better than their opponent they will still lose against certain classes because those classes really are more overpowered.

Of course, Warlocks are used here as the moment prominent example, and I used sorceror as the opponent because, despite the sorceror often being thought of as one of the most overpowered classes in game, it still wont stand a chance against even a much lesser skilled/equipped warlock. You could apply this to other classes to some extent, for example bonedancers, assassins and such have a lot of tools to guarantee a win vs. the majority of opponent classes.

Moving aside from just proving the class balance point in one vs. one situations you also have to account for the fact there's more than one way to be overpowered - just because a class is overpowered in 1 vs 1 (sorcerors, bonedancers, assassins for example) doesn't mean they're so overpowered when it comes to realm defence. Again citing example classes here, the animist really isn't too much of a threat to a lot of classes 1 vs 1, but as soon as you stick that solo animist in a keep he can suddenly fend off much larger amounts of opponents even if the opponents are equally skilled if not more skilled than the animist himself - the same applies to bainshees, whilst not terribly powerful 8vs8, in a Lords room they suddenly become monsters due to their CAE having no falloff meaning they can stand well back from the stairs and do serious damage well out the way of any risk of interruptions. As another example, taking archers - extremely overpowered in seige, extremely weak in 8vs8/field combat.

So essentially, the original statement that there's no such thing as an overpowered class is, imo, entirely wrong and if anything couldn't be further from the truth - the fact is pretty much every class has an area where it excels more so than any other therefore there's situations where almost every class can be overpowered however in general terms, if a class is only overpowered in minority situations it's often not thought of as being generally overpowered hence why you don't hear much complaints about say, Wardens being overpowered - whilst PBT might make them godlike against some frontload spec 6.0spd pole armsman that only hits once every 3yrs the fact that this situation rarely arises means that they're just not complained about. The general overpowered complaints come about those classes who are always, or very often overpowered, again, i.e. Warlocks.

To finish off, in agreement with the original statement the water is often muddied by player skill, a large amount of VN whines only exist because someone was beaten by someone who was just outright better than them and not to do with the class OR, was as stated above just caught by a specific class when the opposing class happened to be in the one situation where they truly do excel - using the above far out example again, a polearmsman may come crying to the boards about how a warden pwned him with 100% health left for example. So yes overpowered classes definetely exist imo, but no players aren't always right about what is and isn't overpowered in the grand scheme of things.

[Quinlan]

Slow day at work for you too i see ;p

[Overdue]

That bainshee might not of wanted to break the cc already up, if there was any or just wanted to concentrate on one target, after all his baseline DD/shout is pretty high, nerfable high . But the point is that skill depends on what class class your playing, look at a BD, okay maybe some people can play them better than others but there's your iwin(tm) button and I guess you can try DDing aswell if you can be bothered, ohno I'm being attacked by two tanks, better q/c root one and move away and click my iwin button.

Then there's a CC class, you have to be aware all the time, look out for your team make sure everyones with you and lead (except sorcs ofc). Warlocks are pretty much the next Bonedancers and no, each class isn't equal they may all have their uses but look at a Thane come on with buff bots now kinda makes everyone pity them.

So in my honest opinion after all this random crap I've been writing I'll have to go with the obvious, some classes are overpowered but with skill and knowledge of the game you can beat them, for instance a good assasin can beat a BD with uses of the ml ae mezz poison and a disease poison on their other weapon or a light eld who gets the jump in.

[Xest]

[quote="Quinlan"]Slow day at work for you too i see ]
Slow two weeks fyi, boss is on holiday

[Lieva]

There's no such thing as an overpowered class, only good and bad players.

Discuss.


My contention is that, if played properly, any class will appear overpowered when viewed by someone else who is not playing their own class to its maximum potential.

A character that has the right balance of skill specs, with suitably chosen artifacts, spell-crafted armour and experience of different game situations will appear to some, to be overpowered. However, what sets them apart from other classes are factors that the player can choose and can influence and the real advantage comes from player knowledge, not class imbalance..

So, back to the original point - is there such a thing as overpowered or is it just the difference between good and bad players?

I'd agree with that yes.

knowledge is power

for instance.
Albion heritic class (i think)
If you went against them not knowing about the zombie function you would automatically attack the zombies which in actual effect is a really dumb thing to do - apparently. Cause you need to mezz them.

However i dont think the people who dont know this stuff are bad players - just - inexperienced
unless they do the same time and time again without learning then theyre bad players

[Haarewin]

unless they do the same time and time again without learning then theyre bad players

that would make them stupid, not bad players

[Elrandhir]

There's no such thing as an overpowered class, only good and bad players.

Na, don´t think so, sure it makes lots of different how good you play you char and can probably win against classes that are bit to good if you play better then those using them, but sure is classes where you don´t have to be all that great to be totally usless if you dont win.

like bonedancer, anyone loosing solo to a tank with that char shouldent play atall =P

Just one exaple really ofcourse there are classes that is bit to good, and always will be, but you will care less if you play your char good

[Asysh]

Bonedancer is quite probably worse than a warlock really, at least they can be interupted and don't have an array of insta-spells and a plathora of healing pets chasing after them.

[Xest]

Bonedancer is quite probably worse than a warlock really, at least they can be interupted and don't have an array of insta-spells and a plathora of healing pets chasing after them.

Warlocks usually have 3 insta-chambers and around 5 or so uninterruptable casts to a power bar when twinked - all will often contain at least one extremely high delve lifetap which heal for some silly percentage also. Bonedancers are worse over a longer duration but you stand far more chance against a BD than you do a Warlock, warlock has guaranteed uninterruptable kill, the only way to deal with them realiably is stun.