Dark Age of Interruptalot and other musings

[Cromcruaich]

They could take out resist pierce.

Anyway ....

MoM and other damage reduction ra's are a waste of time for tanks, any tank needs charge/det, charge/purge first. They are the essential tools of the trade.

I wont bore you with the calculations, but MoM 3 on a templated toon with yellow resists prevents about 7% damage, that 70 points in 1000, this doesnt even amount to an extra nuke (on average) to kill a 2000 hp character. By all means stick in toughness 3, for an additional 150 hps, he might just have to tap that button one more time to kill you.

That incidently would be 20rps spent (you'd have no other tools ofcourse), a caster with 20rps gets 12.10% damage bonus, with MoM3 WP2 AA2 (2 points over).

[Xest]

Cant really bring vanish into it. Any idiot can chase down / pbaoe / find a 10% hp , Vanish 1 stealther, and its still bugged to hell it dosent work half the time.

Yeah that's ok if you have PBAE, Alb has no PBAErs (all wizzies go fire now), Mid has Warlock PBAE and that's about it, SMs nearly always go darkness. Why are you escaping on 10% hps too? It's not like the little spell effect for MoC isn't blatantly obvious - why not escape at 100%?

MoM and other damage reduction ra's are a waste of time for tanks, any tank needs charge/det, charge/purge first. They are the essential tools of the trade.

That's the point though if you think that then fine, don't cry about caster damage anymore than a caster should complain about you being un-CCable, personally though I've definetely got more mileage out of higher resists/toughness - it's that difference between a cleric being unable to keep you alive and being able to keep you alive in the face of a caster train and that's what matters.

That incidently would be 20rps spent (you'd have no other tools ofcourse), a caster with 20rps gets 12.10% damage bonus, with MoM3 WP2 AA2 (2 points over).

Assuming the target has capped resists (even worse with resist buffs) the caster without relics will be lucky to hit for about 400 on average with no RAs, add your 12% in and the caster gets around +45dmg per nuke which amusingly over 2000 hps or 5 nukes @ 400dmg each is around 225 dmg, i.e. 25 damage less than toughness will get you for the 20 RSPs. As I say you can make the situation a whole lot more tank biased with even the 16% resist buffs.

All I'm saying is if casters are the biggest problem for you now, at least try and counter them, and yes it may take sacrifices in making yourself slightly less immune to CC (something casters could only dream of ), trying to keep CC immunity and uninterruptable DPS as well as then suggesting you should be hard as hell for casters too is kinda stupid. Heavy/Light tanks have some really nice utility nowadays with banelord and with the heavy tank boosts, they're tough as hell, un-CCable and have pretty decent (albeit not caster level) uninterruptable DPS, honestly, why are you asking for more? It's a little like casters asking to become uninterruptable or to receive plate armour. Things are pretty balanced now with casters having the advantage at the lowest realm ranks and tanks having the advantage at the highest realm ranks, maybe normalize that slightly but it's really no big deal cos the low realm ranks are easy to get through anyway and the high realm ranks are relatively low in numbers, by RR4 - RR8 things are pretty even and I'd guess that's where the majority of players are.

[Genedril]

I wasn't really complaining about caster damage per se, just in relation to the 'Dark Age of Interuptalot'.

Caster damage is high, but because they can be interupted so easily then I guess it has to stay that way. I think, at the end of the day, the caster bonuses from ToA threw things more in their favour than the stuff tanks got. With the reliance on burst dps then you need to interupt, if you want to reduce interupt effects then you need to reduce caster damage. The fact, as Mael pointed out, that casters can live happily in sieges as opposed to tanks makes them more prevelant & therefore they just appear more annoying. In fg stuff then you can get the interupts down & give your tanks time to cross the divide (unless it's the alb extend forever groups & then you cross your fingers). Lifetaps are just stupid though.

Due to the way it works AoM just doesn't give the bang for buck that PD does. If casters want to spec full offence then fair enough, but why shouldn't a tank be afforded the same luxury?? Oh wait, they can't get to the caster in time so they should spec defence while the caster specs offense - that's got to tell you somethings not right straight away. Still in FG (which Mythic claim not to base the game around) the interupts are the thing that help bring down caster dps & things seem to balance out ok.

[Xest]

Agree casters got a major boost with ToA but the reason I defend them now is I feel it's settled down a hell of a lot since then such that it's no major issue now - as you say, interrupts counter casters well

Due to the way it works AoM just doesn't give the bang for buck that PD does.

Don't understand what you mean by this though, PD is actually worse for casters, if you've got high weaponskill as a tank vs. someone with low AF it doesn't really matter if you have capped resists, with over 400 str and capped ToA bonuses I cap on casters ignoring resists completely because of their low AF. Melee resists are only useful if you have the AF to back them up, that's why it's pretty decent on rangers/hunters/scouts but never really purchased by casters.

If casters want to spec full offence then fair enough, but why shouldn't a tank be afforded the same luxury??

No, you're misunderstanding my point, I'm saying if people want to counter casters offence with RAs they should improve their defence with RAs, if a caster decided to buy toughness 5 and PD 5 then I'd recommend speccing aug str 5 and mastery of pain 5 to counter it for example. I'm just saying that if you throw all your eggs in one basket then you can't complain when there's a weakness to your character, if you spread RAs a little you reach greater effectiveness, some RAs are nicer to have than others of course but for example it makes far mroe sense to buy AoM3 + EM1 than it does to buy det. 5 (okay so there's 1 RSP difference there but you get the idea ) for example. If you're waiting until you have say charge 3, det. 5 before you buy any AoM/EM/Toughness then it's just dumb to complain about dying to a caster that's dumped into MoM4, AA4, WP3 or whatever for the same RSP cost. The whole RA system is designed such that buying 5 tier RAs to level 3 or whatever gives you a more balanced character than if you put all your eggs in one basket which hence leads to flaws in your characters all round balance.

[Edlina]

Don't understand what you mean by this though, PD is actually worse for casters, if you've got high weaponskill as a tank vs. someone with low AF it doesn't really matter if you have capped resists, with over 400 str and capped ToA bonuses I cap on casters ignoring resists completely because of their low AF. Melee resists are only useful if you have the AF to back them up, that's why it's pretty decent on rangers/hunters/scouts but never really purchased by casters.

What kind of caster runs without af buff these days? casters I run with have more af than me when i cba to use one usually have close to 700 af, really caster AF is pretty much just as high as everyone else, or at least, it's just as high as what I have on my bard.

Casters taking dmg increasing realm abilities works on all targets always, where as magic dmg mitigating ra's only works against casters, some are timed abilities, and it render the tank much easier to be cc'ed out of a fight.

Overall the game is pretty balanced though at the moment, possibly more than it has been very often in its history. Tanks are probably a tad too much 'interrupt bots' and a tad too little 'damage dealers', and 2 casters assisting with debuffs can drop any target faster than anyone can react, which is why you need to prevent such with interrupts... really for the most parts it's okay.

Fix stuff such as tendrils with stun immunity, the melee immunity of ml9 pets (and lower dmg from them as well), range on speed warps, and similar bloody insane things, such as bainshee taunt range, sm intercept pet, lifetap value/hidding dmg increase, and ofc set bd insta debuff to not interrupt, and make lifetap 5 second timer.

There's definently a few silly things in the game, but overall it's quite impressively well balanced!

[Belisar]

No, you're misunderstanding my point, I'm saying if people want to counter casters offence with RAs they should improve their defence with RAs.

From a tank's perspective I can see the point and suspect the key word there is the "if".

Empty mind will give me 45 seconds of an extra 10% resist, but if I have sacrificed some CC resistance and am therefore stationary for a longer then the caster could well get more spells off. The damage output is such that a couple of spells make a lot of difference.

Grabbing say Det 5 means I am stationary for only a few seconds to much CC but as I am likely to take more damage anyway then those few seconds may be all it takes.

Especially in a group situation it seems to me that interupting casters is the must. I can do that by hitting them, damage output not as much as a casters but it will do the job. Or I can use banelord etc. In most group fights unless I have been extended I am not going to be the primary target as a tank, its going to be my healers or casters. So I wonder if less time stationary but more damage is therefore a risk worth taking.

Hhhmm choices choices.

As for game changes I wonder if hibbies are slightly worse off for pets. We get a chanter pet and a druid pet. No chain stunners and no casting 4 or 5 of the things to go an be annoying.

[Xest]

What kind of caster runs without af buff these days? casters I run with have more af than me when i cba to use one usually have close to 700 af, really caster AF is pretty much just as high as everyone else, or at least, it's just as high as what I have on my bard.

Think most casters do run with AF buff but the point is as AF has generally increased since the old days so has weaponskill so AF buff isn't even a saviour there anymore, likewise with an AF buffed caster getting hit for cap by 2000+ weapskill, an RF wearer like your bard will suffer the same fate, not really hard to rip apart a non-spec AF using RF wearer either with a well twinked tank now.

Casters taking dmg increasing realm abilities works on all targets always, where as magic dmg mitigating ra's only works against casters, some are timed abilities, and it render the tank much easier to be cc'ed out of a fight.

Agreed, but again that goes back to my point that you can't expect to be uber vs. everything, you can become well rounded by spreading your RAs are become uber vs. something by focussing on one line of RAs, the problem is some people think they should be uber vs. everything and that's simply never going to happen - it's not like casters have uber defence - all classes have their weakness (Well okay maybe the odd OP class doesn't but still ).

Again I'm not saying tanks are OP or anything or that casters are gimped, I'm basically agreeing with what you say Edlina - the game is pretty damn balanced right now however people suggesting casters need toning down or tanks toning down don't seem to realise they'd completely and utterly break the game again like it has been a few times in it's history. Nerf casters now even slightly and you have complete and utter tank domination, nerf tanks even slightly and you have complete and utter caster domination.

[Gandelf]

I think interruption will probably be given a look at at some point. At the moment I personally think it's problem for casters, because it causes a lot of frustration, which makes the game less fun. A caster is a caster, he/she casts spells. If he/she is being denied the ability to cast, then the game needs looking at. Some interruption is good, but spamming it so that a caster can't even get a chance is a bit ridiculous.

Like Xest, I believe that things have balanced out a bit, so that casters aren't overpowered anymore. Interruption does counter the caster, but too much of it is not good for the game as a whole. Maybe Mythic should reduce the effects of it, so that casters can do what they are supposed to do and not feel like a sub-class, but compensate by changing something else? Maybe have an absolute hard cap on casting speed, a bit like Warlock, but not as severe?

Another idea might be to have a level 4 MoC, which gives 100% spell damage. That way, the caster is afforded some compensation for all the interruption there is. It wouldn't be overpowered, because it would require a lot of RSPts to purchase, which would mean sacrificing something else.

[Tasmin]

'interuption'.....think it's problem for casters, because it causes a lot of frustration, which makes the game less fun. A caster is a caster, he/she casts spells. If he/she is being denied the ability to cast, then the game needs looking at.

Mmmm, do you think tanks/light tanks like to stand around until they get nuked to death? If interuption of casters gets nerfed, I and many melee classes will be asking for a nerf of mezz,stun and root....Makes being a melee class 'less fun' and if a melee class is being denied the ability to hit things then the game needs looking at

Just wish ranger rapid fire was rapid, seems really pedestrian compared to quickcast spells and bolts. The I could interupt more as this used to be the rangers 'thing' in a grp.

Tas

[Puppet]

Don't understand what you mean by this though, PD is actually worse for casters, if you've got high weaponskill as a tank vs. someone with low AF it doesn't really matter if you have capped resists, with over 400 str and capped ToA bonuses I cap on casters ignoring resists completely because of their low AF. Melee resists are only useful if you have the AF to back them up, that's why it's pretty decent on rangers/hunters/scouts but never really purchased by casters.

Im sorry this is total bullshit. Perhaps you cap on ROG-casters, or you have 3 melee-relics to back you up. Im quite sure my Vampiir has higher WS then your merc, yet I dont cap at all on them casters if they put the same effort in their template as I did.

Describing its fine with casters, you just need <fill in any amount of Empty Mind and AoM> is silly aswell. Why can a caster go straight up by boosting their damage-RA's where tanks are 'forced' in getting defense against magic-damage?


Also, AoM and such isnt much defense against any decent caster unless you got *red* resist-buffs. Basically casters might be balanced *IF* you got red resist-buffs, and ofcourse capped resists.

I dont care if its a crit or not, getting nuked on 36%/5% resists for 713, 684, 789.... dead by an air theurgist on my ranger is *NOT* balanced.