Jesus Camp Trailer

[Xest]

These two comments are from similar positions so I will put them together:





Interesting question Crom. If it is true (and you obviously agree that we do) that we owe our democratic ideas in some part to a religious heritage then can I ask you why would we want to speculate on a fantastical world where these things might have existed without religion? What is to be gained?

Sure we can argue (as Xest has just done and as you appear to be doing) and mirror Kant in so doing that reason is transcendental and that it exists outside of people, religious institutions and society. If it does then who exactly is this reason you claim exists seperate from us and our history?

How is it possible for something to exist beyond us and history?

No one said reason exists outside of people, quite the opposite, it is a trait that comes natural to humans and likely stems back to the natural insticts required to survive. We know that just going round killing each other is bad for the species, we know that stealing from someone else will lead to conflict, look at the people who still, people who are desperate and have no other path. Of course there are exceptions but they are just that, exceptions.

Take the above and compare it to the animal world, does a wolf attack another wolf? Not unless it's desperate, does a wolf attack a human? not unless it's desperate (or has rabies). Does a wolf steal food from another Wolf? Only if there isn't abundance enough for it to find it's own. Even the fox outside my house wont attack cats because although it could kill one for food it knows that it wouldn't be the easiest or most sensible target. Of course it's more complex than that, there are situations where the weak maybe preyed upon and so forth but the fact is many of the moral principles defined by religion, which in turn are often based purely on common sense, which in turn is just that a sense, something natural to us (and other species). Humans are of course more advanced than this so whilst the animal examples are rather clear cut it's not always the case with humans but the point is that religion hasn't exactly provided anything that doesn't occur naturally anyway.

Do you think the wolves need to check their bible before they decide whether it's right to kill one of their own, before they decide who to "elect" as the alpha male, before they decide whether they should steal another wolf's food?

[Sharkith]

In what way would it be dangerous? Its much more dangerous to be single minded and just close your eyes to everything apart from the path you chosen.

You ask me what I stand for - care to expand that question abit? Cos you already know that I don't belive in religion, so exactly what do you want to know? Btw - just cus I dont belive in religion I havent said that I would like to stop others from doing so. But what I would like is to hear from others why I should belive in it.

/Ankh

Ankh personally I feel those are all valuable questions. If you don't know what you stand for you can acquiesce and stand by when wrongs are being done. Thats why radical doubt can be useful (I also believe that total blind faith is also risky) but in the end I feel we all have to recognise that we need to stand for something. We have to make a call and risk being wrong.

Why I asked you the question - well because like I said its fine to question beliefs in God and it is fine to challenge these beliefs. If this is done constructively that is fine but I also think you and others ought to also outline carefully alternatives.

Can an alternative position be provided that is better. I have read some responses along these lines here but the vast majority of responses are just digs. I feel many of them are irresponsible communications without any real substance. Its why I began to object so much.

[Sharkith]

No one said reason exists outside of people, quite the opposite, it is a trait that comes natural to humans and likely stems back to the natural insticts required to survive. We know that just going round killing each other is bad for the species, we know that stealing from someone else will lead to conflict, look at the people who still, people who are desperate and have no other path. Of course there are exceptions but they are just that, exceptions.

Sorry Xest you have totally lost me. Can you hold back a second and define reason? You are saying its a trait. Does that mean we can locate it organically?

[Xest]

You often cite Darwin in this thread and claim it is 'fact' because it is observable. What is a fact Xest?

It seems silly to debate what a fact is, Crom has already covered this, are you questioning that a table may not be a table (in terms of what it is, and not what we call it).

Now how is it possible for 'nature' to have 'rationality' and reason? Is it possible that Darwin and all his followers are admitting to some form of design in nature? If so who designed the selections? God? Or Darwin himself?

You're making connections that aren't there, a natural occurance is by definition, just that, something that occurs naturally without any outside force. Occam's razor seems rather relevant here, perhaps you should read into it.

[<ankh>]

Ankh personally I feel those are all valuable questions. If you don't know what you stand for you can acquiesce and stand by when wrongs are being done. Thats why radical doubt can be useful (I also believe that total blind faith is also risky) but in the end I feel we all have to recognise that we need to stand for something. We have to make a call and risk being wrong.

I don't agree. I'd rather listen to all parts and make my decision once I've been convinced rather than taking a risk spending the rest of my life believing in something that might turn out to be wrong.

I cannot answer what I stand for as I still havent found anything worth standing for. I could say that I put all my faith into science (which would be partially true) but in that case I would be lying as there are quite a few things in science that I don't understand. But as I said earlier there are more things in science that makes sense than religion. Its amazing that I have to say these things again as I've said it twice earlier in this thread.

/Ankh

[Sharkith]

It seems silly to debate what a fact is, Crom has already covered this, are you questioning that a table may not be a table (in terms of what it is, and not what we call it).

You're making connections that aren't there, a natural occurance is by definition, just that, something that occurs naturally without any outside force. Occam's razor seems rather relevant here, perhaps you should read into it.

It might seem silly but I think its clear you have avoided the point I made about Darwin. I thought it was very clear what I was stating and that was that the facts of natural selection are not seperable from the idea of what it is.

To answer Croms question on whether a table exists or not involves getting into what a property is. A philosopher would be better equipped to answer the question but I believe that the answer is certainly not as straight forward as Crom suggested.

What your saying then is that reason occurs naturally without any outside force. Can you tell me where reason is located then? If it occurs naturally it must have a place to exist surely?

[Sharkith]

I don't agree. I'd rather listen to all parts and make my decision once I've been convinced rather than taking a risk spending the rest of my life believing in something that might turn out to be wrong.

I cannot answer what I stand for as I still havent found anything worth standing for. I could say that I put all my faith into science (which would be partially true) but in that case I would be lying as there are quite a few things in science that I don't understand. But as I said earlier there are more things in science that makes sense than religion. Its amazing that I have to say these things again as I've said it twice earlier in this thread.

Well Ankh to be honest I didn't believe you but now I can see your being sincere. I apologise but your position seems hopeless then. How will you ever have been able to listen to all parts? It takes a lifetime to master one discipline let alone listen to everything and then decide. I don't envy your position. Why not be bold and draw your mark on the world?

As Zorba said "To live is to undo your belt and look for trouble!"

Not really science but much better advice than sitting waiting for the answer only in my opinion of course!

[Xest]

Sorry Xest you have totally lost me. Can you hold back a second and define reason? You are saying its a trait. Does that mean we can locate it organically?

Yes, it's part of our brain and the brains of all other species that are managing to survive okay. Common sense has a very strong relation to natural instinct, we know what is and isn't a good idea without any religious influence. Whilst moral principles as defined by religion or otherwise often cover things other than the basics, the fact that we as a species know the difference between good ideas and bad ideas surrounding our everyday survival is demonstration enough that we do not need a religion to tell us so. There have been isolated tribes out there that had been seperated from mainstream religious beleifs (long before they were devised) and the mainstream population that still elected leaders, that still knew not to kill each other, that were content with one partner and so forth so if these people didn't require the bible, the koran or so on how do you explain that they also had these same basic ideas? The answer is simple, that they come naturally to us and again, we call it common sense.

[Sharkith]

Yes, it's part of our brain and the brains of all other species that are managing to survive okay. Common sense has a very strong relation to natural instinct, we know what is and isn't a good idea without any religious influence. Whilst moral principles as defined by religion or otherwise often cover things other than the basics, the fact that we as a species know the difference between good ideas and bad ideas surrounding our everyday survival is demonstration enough that we do not need a religion to tell us so. There have been isolated tribes out there that had been seperated from mainstream religious beleifs (long before they were devised) and the mainstream population that still elected leaders, that still knew not to kill each other, that were content with one partner and so forth so if these people didn't require the bible, the koran or so on how do you explain that they also had these same basic ideas? The answer is simple, that they come naturally to us and again, we call it common sense.

Your not answering my question. Where is reason? Where can we see it? What does it look like?

[Xest]

I cannot answer what I stand for as I still havent found anything worth standing for. I could say that I put all my faith into science (which would be partially true) but in that case I would be lying as there are quite a few things in science that I don't understand. But as I said earlier there are more things in science that makes sense than religion. Its amazing that I have to say these things again as I've said it twice earlier in this thread.

I think you hit the nail on the head really Ankh, the fact is that the newer areas of science take a bit of time before they become fully verified and mainstream, for some reason we've constantly had our comments taken out of context in that there is an assumption that if you don't beleive in god and you claim there is more proof for science then you automatically beleive all science, this is not the case. Sharkith's comments on Darwinism only elaborate this further, would I beleive in evolution had I been sat by Darwin shortly after he came up with his set of theories, how about even 20 years after? I'd have said he probably was onto something but I wouldn't have put my full faith into it, now however that more research has been done into the subject, proving further it's correctness then yes I would put my faith into it because it's observable, proveable and has no plausible alternative. As it is the only option with any grounding, a logical option and a proveable option the decision to beleive it really isn't difficult.