Jesus Camp Trailer

Post by **Lieva** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:29 pm

Sharkith wrote:this thread would make baby Jesus cry

knowing there is no icecream would make any kid cry tho

Gandelf · Post by **Gandelf** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:21 pm

Cromcruaich wrote:It's a shame you arnt prepared on here to defend your views on creationism in any logical or meaningful way. The questions people have asked you, they no doubt asked themselves many years ago. I can only hope you are now prepared to ask them of yourself, and if your only answer is dogged blind faith, then you know in your head, if not your heart that the religious dogma you hold dear has fundamental floors that you need to explore.

To be honest, I am somewhat overwhelmed atm. So many people opposing me and probably only one other person (Banana) brave enough to stand on my side of the fence by admitting a belief in God. I haven't even had the chance to read through all the posts because, quite frankly, there are so many and my time on the Internet is restricted somewhat during the day. The only time I get is in the evening when I'm home, but even then, cooking meals for my wife and I, washing the dishes, watching Star Trek on the Sci-Fi Channel and all the other 1001 tasks that I have to do severely limit my time on the Internet. On top of that, there are the Spellcrafting orders that are stacking up!

I'm not a scientist, I'm a Graphic Designer (sounds a bit like Dr. McCoy) and the highest qualification in the sciences that I hold is a grade C in GCSE Physics. So if you want scientific explanations for why I believe what I believe, then you won't get them from me, or should I say, I lack the knowledge to explain my beliefs in scientific terms. Oh, I know the basics and I've done a lot of study in my favourite area of Physics, time and relativity, but that's only from a layman's point of view.

Is it a triangle, or is it a rectangle? Well, the scientist and the believer in God are like the two people in the diagram I published in my earlier post. Both believe they are right and from one point of view only, both are correct. However, if both people could see the whole picture, then they could see perhaps that there is room for both groups to be satisfied. All it takes is the maturity to accept that there are different points of view and that no-one has all the answers. Anyone who says they know everything is not telling the truth. A scientist claiming to have the explanation for everything is no worse than a believer in God making the same claim, both are at extremes of the scale. I have an open mind and I accept both sides of the argument. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong, but I have the faith to believe that there is a God and faith is the name of the game and the measure of a person's character. How many others are mature enough to believe that? I listed on a previous thread all the famous scientists, including Einstein, who also believed in God... even Stephen Hawking! Are they, with scientific minds so far more advanced than probably anyone on this forum in the wrong? Perhaps they are... or is it just because they realise that there is far more to heaven and earth than meets the eye?

I could go on, but I won't atm, because I now have to get ready to go out for a night at the theatre (no, not an operating theatre!).

When I get the chance, I will share my experiences that led to me becoming a born-again Christian, what it feels like and what it means to me. That's the best I can do. That's not a failing, because if God wants others to follow him, then the process of becoming a believer needs to be simple enough for everyone to follow... even someone as simple as me!

Bye for now.

Cromcruaich · Post by **Cromcruaich** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:49 pm

nibs wrote: There are some things that science just cant explain. Such as how people who science can not help are able to make an unexplainable recovery from ailments that according to science should have killed them.

No. Off the mark.

Cromcruaich · Post by **Cromcruaich** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:58 pm

Gandelf wrote:To be honest, I am somewhat overwhelmed atm. So many people opposing me and probably only one other person (Banana) brave enough to stand on my side of the fence by admitting a belief in God. I haven't even had the chance to read through all the posts because, quite frankly, there are so many and my time on the Internet is restricted somewhat during the day. The only time I get is in the evening when I'm home, but even then, cooking meals for my wife and I, washing the dishes, watching Star Trek on the Sci-Fi Channel and all the other 1001 tasks that I have to do severely limit my time on the Internet. On top of that, there are the Spellcrafting orders that are stacking up!

I'm not a scientist, I'm a Graphic Designer (sounds a bit like Dr. McCoy) and the highest qualification in the sciences that I hold is a grade C in GCSE Physics. So if you want scientific explanations for why I believe what I believe, then you won't get them from me, or should I say, I lack the knowledge to explain my beliefs in scientific terms. Oh, I know the basics and I've done a lot of study in my favourite area of Physics, time and relativity, but that's only from a layman's point of view.

Is it a triangle, or is it a rectangle? Well, the scientist and the believer in God are like the two people in the diagram I published in my earlier post. Both believe they are right and from one point of view only, both are correct. However, if both people could see the whole picture, then they could see perhaps that there is room for both groups to be satisfied. All it takes is the maturity to accept that there are different points of view and that no-one has all the answers. Anyone who says they know everything is not telling the truth. A scientist claiming to have the explanation for everything is no worse than a believer in God making the same claim, both are at extremes of the scale. I have an open mind and I accept both sides of the argument. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong, but I have the faith to believe that there is a God and faith is the name of the game and the measure of a person's character. How many others are mature enough to believe that? I listed on a previous thread all the famous scientists, including Einstein, who also believed in God... even Stephen Hawking! Are they, with scientific minds so far more advanced than probably anyone on this forum in the wrong? Perhaps they are... or is it just because they realise that there is far more to heaven and earth than meets the eye.

I could go on, but I won't atm, because I now have to get ready to go out for a night at the theatre (no, not an operating theatre!).

When I get the chance, I will share my experiences that led to me becoming a born-again Christian, what it feels like and what it means to me. That's the best I can do. That's not a failing, because if God wants others to follow him, then the process of becoming a believer needs to be simple enough for everyone to follow... even someone as simple as me!

Bye for now.

Again, there are some specific questions you havent answered, that relate directly to your faith that you have chosen to avoid. For me, the key thread of the discussion with you has been you're belief in a creationist dogma, and a total denial of evolution and its underlying various mechanisms that have lead to the current species present on the earth today. Its a very specific point and it would be good to discuss it with you, as I surmise that as an evangelical christian you are bound to creationism as written down in Genesis. Clarification of this is a good starting point from which a discussion can continue in specific terms.

I'm not at this stage particularly concerned with the existance or not of an omnipotent being.

Quinlan · Post by **Quinlan** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:01 pm

Gandelf wrote: cooking meals for my wife and I, washing the dishes, watching Star Trek on the Sci-Fi Channel and all the other 1001 tasks that I have to do severely limit my time on the Internet.

You are well trained!

<ankh> · Post by **<ankh>** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:09 pm

Gandelf wrote:To be honest, I am somewhat overwhelmed atm. So many people opposing me and probably only one other person (Banana) brave enough to stand on my side of the fence by admitting a belief in God.

What you mean brave enough? DId it ever occur to you that perhaps there is just you two that belives in god in this forum? (I doubt it, but the forum is quite dead now so it takes a miracle to find more believers)

/Ankh

Sharkith · Post by **Sharkith** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:40 pm

tbh Gandy your better quoting the bible and forgetting about debating. Tell them how it is by simply quoting the very thing that gives you your faith. After all its how you were taught to deal with unbelief. I would start with the tower of Babal - it is a good position to adopt in this position.

Never get into this bullshit rationality since your beliefs are not rational why worry about people complaining about the lack of rationality? Most of all why even begin to try and please them. The universe just is as you see it and tough shit if there are no reasons. Thats the way it is, because baby Jesus said so.

As for the rest - religion is not scientific so stop complaining that it doesn't fit a scientific perspective. Most of all stop telling him he has to reason with you. He doesn't and if your not happy with that then try growing up a little and getting with the programme. I see no triumph here only immaturity.

<ankh> · Post by **<ankh>** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:02 am

Sharkith wrote:As for the rest - religion is not scientific so stop complaining that it doesn't fit a scientific perspective. Most of all stop telling him he has to reason with you. He doesn't and if your not happy with that then try growing up a little and getting with the programme. I see no triumph here only immaturity.

I said nothing about him reasoning with me - I asked him to convince me. Thats a big fucking difference imo. So imo before throwing out comments about immaturity you should proberbly read the posts again (it might not be aimed at me..I dunno...but I thought I might defend myself anyway just incase. And if it wasnt aimed at me - just ignore my post).

...but even so, its not immaturity to discuss the matter. Science vs Religion is an ancient discussion which imo should be treated as quite important discussion - I only wish there was a couple of more religious people here to join the discussion. Would be even better if it was a couple of reborn to back him up.

/Ankh

Post by **Xest** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:35 am

Sharkith wrote:As for the rest - religion is not scientific so stop complaining that it doesn't fit a scientific perspective. Most of all stop telling him he has to reason with you. He doesn't and if your not happy with that then try growing up a little and getting with the programme. I see no triumph here only immaturity.

Well seeing as he arrogantly put us down suggesting that it's something we can't grasp then yes, he does have to explain himself and reason with us. It's not like anyone is putting Gandelf down for the hell of it, but instead because he's told us we're wrong, inferred we're not intelligent enough to understand things like he does and so on - if he's going to do that, he needs to justify his position, thus far he's been unable to do so.

Satyn · Post by **Satyn** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:31 am

To try and go back on topic a bit..
When Ankh showed me that trailer i was shocked. To see children act the way they did and say what they did was terrible to see.
When i showed the movie to my father, he had a totally diffrent view and opinion than me. And that was the same as gandy's.

Thing is we look at it from a non-believers point of view. So ofcourse we're gona see the next generation of bombers there. But to a true believer seeing something like that is a good thing cos then they know that their religion isnt gona die. They know what those kids mean. We dont.

I used to be a true believer, things happened that changed my view on that. But i can still remember the peace that was over me when i did believe in god.

My respect to Gandy.