Jesus Camp Trailer

Cromcruaich · Post by **Cromcruaich** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:18 am

[quote="Gandelf"]Ankh, Ankh, my dear fellow...

I know I said I wouldn't post again on this thread Ankh, but with all due respect you don't know what you're talking about. In fact, you can't know what you're talking about, because you yourself are not a "born-again" Christian. I don't say that with the intention of stirring up ill-feeling, or anything like that (if I do, I apologise), but because it's impossible for anyone who is not a "born-again" Christian to understand what it is to be "born-again".

Perhaps a simply analogy would suffice:- Someone who is born totally blind, (i.e. so blind that they not only cannot define shapes, but cannot even define dark from light) cannot know what it is to see. It's impossible, because they have never experienced the sensation of being able to see. Now imagine that someone suddenly cured that person's blindness and imagine the impact that would have! That's the difference between a "born-again" Christian and someone who isn't "born-again". You need to experience what it is to be "born-again" to understand the truth. I know that is very arrogant of me to say, but it happens to be the truth as I see it. That's why there is a great chasm of difference between those who say they are "Christian" just because they live in a "Christian" country and those who really are.

I know you (and no doubt many others) will now go on to say that I am talking a load of bull**** and flame me etc, etc, but that just proves even more to me that you (and they) are not yet "born-again" and therefore are unable to speak with any authority. I would not be so arrogant to presume that my faith is stronger than anyone elses, but I believe what I believe, and if I cannot (or am not allowed to) speak what I know to be the truth, then where is freedom of speech?

I repeat, I don't say the above to incite hatred or "flame", but because I believe I have the freedom of speech to correct those who are in error, if I believe they are in error. I don't expect for one minute for you to agree with me, but I know you well enough to know that you will respect me for what I believe, just as I respect you and what you do (or don't) believe.

That is why I believe it is a mistake for people to make comments when they don't know all the facts]

Did you read The Age of Reason by the way?

Oh and while you are talking about facts, how about you list the 'facts' that support your belief, oh and ofcourse start with the core definition of those beliefs? I dont want to see any cut and pastes from formal sources either.

Gandelf · Post by **Gandelf** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:34 am

<ankh> wrote:Science > Religion

God created Science.

<ankh> · Post by **<ankh>** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:39 am

[quote="Gandelf"]God created Science. ]

haha yeah right!

/Ankh

Post by **Xest** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:44 am

[quote="Gandelf"]God created Science. ]
What created god?

Heta · Post by **Heta** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:44 am

How could he? He doesn't exist, are you one of those that believe that god also created everything 6000 years ago? cause according to the bible he did. I see clear facts that he didn't.

Gandelf · Post by **Gandelf** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:07 pm

Cromcruaich wrote:Did you read The Age of Reason by the way?

Oh and while you are talking about facts, how about you list the 'facts' that support your belief, oh and ofcourse start with the core definition of those beliefs? I dont want to see any cut and pastes from formal sources either.

It's a personal experience that doesn't need facts. When it happens to you that's all the evidence you need. When it does happen it's a life changing experience. One example is the apostle named Paul (previously named Saul before he was "born-again"). Initially, he was strongly opposed to what the Christians were preaching, so much so that he persecuted them and had many of them executed. Then he had a life changing experience which resulted in him becoming a follower of Christ. You can read about it here:-

Saul's Conversion

As I've said, you don't need facts, just a willingness to 1. Acknowledge that you (like everyone) have committed wrong deeds, or thought them. 2. To acknowledge that Jesus' death on the cross was a one-off sacrifice for the sins of the world. 3. Ask God for forgiveness. 4. Ask for the Holy Spirit to come into your life.

If you're sincere in doing these things, then you will have that "born-again" experience. And that's the whole beauty of it. Anyone can receive it. You don't have to be the world's most intelligent person, or to be able to quote facts to prove the point. It's so simple, but so many people are afraid to do it because of peer pressure and things like that.

It's one of those things that has to experienced. It's beyond explanation and very hard to get across to those who want facts and the science behind it all. That's why Christians sometimes get persecuted because of their message. That's why I fully expect people on this forum to oppose me so much. But like Saul it can happen to even the most staunch opponents. Jesus commanded his disciples to preach the Gospel to the whole world, that is why I'm doing it here. In some countries it's very dangerous to preach the Gospel, because of the way things are, but that doesn't stop Christians from doing it, because it's down to freedom of speech and doing as Jesus commanded.

It's the simple truth.

<ankh> · Post by **<ankh>** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:20 pm

Gandelf wrote:IOne example is the apostle named Paul (previously named Saul before he was "born-again"). Initially, he was strongly opposed to what the Christians were preaching, so much so that he persecuted them and had many of them executed. Then he had a life changing experience which resulted in him becoming a follower of Christ. You can read about it here:-

Saul's Conversion

How about if you ditch the bible for once and use a better example?
The bible isnt the answers to everything - give us a more recent example. Ofc
the bible is a christian book, so using it as an example is imo bad.

Gandelf wrote: As I've said, you don't need facts, just a willingness to 1. Acknowledge that you (like everyone) have committed wrong deeds, or thought them. 2. To acknowledge that Jesus' death on the cross was a one-off sacrifice for the sins of the world. 3. Ask God for forgiveness. 4. Ask for the Holy Spirit to come into your life.

Thats pretty much what I said earlier...the common answer from religious people. Atleast I DO need facts instead of fairy tales.

/Ankh

Khylrion · Post by **Khylrion** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:29 pm

Not sure this discussion is heading anywhere fruitful

.
It is pretty obvious that people who think black & white have it difficult (not wanted to say impossible

) of convincing the other one of her/his own "truth".
Nevertheless, discussions can be good if they happen in a serene and respectful manner.

imho religion should be a personal matter, but that also implies showing respect for other opinions.
I find all religious people ... lets say ... strange: who think in the lines of: I am right, you are wrong and because you are wrong I can do whatever in my power to you, even if my religious believes (should) contradict these actions.
I also don't think that only religious people have the monopoly on being good human beings.

What I think we can all agree is that all kind of zealots & fundamentalists(relgious or non-religious) who have no respect for other human beings are not the prime of humanity, right?

Every society on this planet has it goods and bads I am afraid, and I think it turns out in the end what you want to be in life. Try to be a decent human being or something else (you can fill that in for yourself

).

Another, and totally unpopular opinion, about the religions in this thread:

they all speak bad of one another, but in the end they come from the same source: judaism, christianity and islamisme all are Abraham traditions.
They have the same god under a different name, they even have the same prophets, just with different stress on the importance, ...
You all know that Jesus is also a prophet in Islam right? just checking as I haven't been bothered to read the whole thread, mea culpa for that.

And arguments that only this religion has this bad stuff and the other doesn't is also intellectually incorrect (little wink to Gandalf here). How easy we forgot all the wars Christians have fought amongs themselves (even to this very day sadly enough).

Imho religion can be a wonderful thing to a person, a source of strength and guidance, to evolve to a better human being.

Sadly enough, religion is mostly used as a tool and not for the greater good.

Just my 2 cents.

... about time for a grouphug don't you think?

Luz · Post by **Luz** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:32 pm

Was reading in order to find some fun "facts" but its all to good to select just a few lines

http://godisimaginary.com/

Nice downtimereading while at work

Heta · Post by **Heta** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:33 pm

I don't know why, but I'm just not able to even grasp the thought how its possible for someone to actually believe something like that. I guess I'm as a strong believer on the opposite that some are at it.