Next expansion.

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Ovi
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Post by Ovi »

Gandelf wrote:It has and it hasn't changed. For example, to prove my point, range bonus... this is a change from the Classic days. You have up to 10% extra range, but because players from each realm can have that extra 10%, no-one has an advantage, so the difference is zero, i.e. it hasn't changed. The range has changed, but the advantage hasn't. So why bother to introduce items that give range? Might as well not have bothered! The net result is the same.
So a melee class doesn't have 10% further to run to get to the caster nuking him? :o

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Post by <ankh> »

Ovi wrote:So a melee class doesn't have 10% further to run to get to the caster nuking him? :o
He wont be able to answer that, cos no offence Gandelf - you only see daoc from one sida - the caster one. (You're actually one of the few who always have complained about the casters - mainly cos thats your main class I guess)

/Ankh

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Post by Gandelf »

Ovi wrote:So a melee class doesn't have 10% further to run to get to the caster nuking him? :o

Aye, exactly... which might be a reason why some would prefer to "rollback" to Classic/SI.

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Genedril
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Post by Genedril »

Ovi wrote:So a melee class doesn't have 10% further to run to get to the caster nuking him? :o

10% further to cover against someone with 10% damage & 10% resist piercing. Also the very nature of the 10% bonus means that the longer ranged spells have an even greater advantage.

I remember Rambo's stealth zerg around AMG. I remember the joy of running into people with detect hidden while on my ranger. I remember not running in Emain & playing in Hadrian’s & Odin’s as my groups couldn't compete against waves of albs & mids or the very high rr groups (for the time) that were around. The fights then were much the same as they are today they'd last a while unless someone obviously had a huge advantage - only diff was watching Maelochs frostie trying to eat someone while all the Alb pets had a go at their own controller (never see ments with pets these days in RvR groups & they should bring back STT for ments cause it was funny!!!). Actually I hear a lot of people calling for OF but what they tend to mean is Emain & then they say Agramon is nothing like it... Well it wasn't if you stayed at the mg's, but there were hills & woods & los issues back in Emain too & you ended up running around in a perpetual circle (AMG, APK, AMG, Tower, ZW, MMG, MPK, MMG, ZW back to AMG) if you were lucky & there wasn't a zerg out in force. Agramon isn't that different really (just do something about the lag please!!!!!!!!!!!)

Yes ToA has impacted on crafters (killed fletchers for starters). But then I remember when people ran around in Epic for the stats or crafted items for the protection - there was no spell crafting & any bonuses you got was down to the fact that you hunted for an item for ages & prayed to god that it dropped. ToA means that you can have artifacts, but if you load up on them you leave holes in your suit one way or another. You also need to earn enough to keep them repaired (hello time sink). Having recently crafted 3 pieces of armour for my hero & spent 19p (wreath, arms & legs) on that I'm pretty happy about the need for less crafted armour pieces as I certainly couldn't afford to pay someone else to do that for me. At least I can do it at cost for myself.

I'd actually remove the ability to port to keeps. That'd give smaller groups the ability to hit on smaller groups as they travel & would probably give stealthers a route to camp. As it is everyone ports to which iRvR keep is flavour of the month & a zerg forms. Said zerg goes & camps a bridge near keep & if you die then who cares as you can release, rebuff & be back there in no time. Where's the risk in that? If you had to travel to get a fight then you'd think twice about just steaming in.

I do believe there are places you can play if all you want is DAoC the way it used to be - just remember when you get there that those rose tinted spectacles you're wearing might not work in the flesh.
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Post by <ankh> »

Genedril wrote:

I'd actually remove the ability to port to keeps. That'd give smaller groups the ability to hit on smaller groups as they travel & would probably give stealthers a route to camp. As it is everyone ports to which iRvR keep is flavour of the month & a zerg forms. Said zerg goes & camps a bridge near keep & if you die then who cares as you can release, rebuff & be back there in no time. Where's the risk in that? If you had to travel to get a fight then you'd think twice about just steaming in.
Now THIS I totally agree on. I loved NF in the start but after awhile I got anoyed that the one you killed could be back searching for you only 2-3 minutes later. I would personally like to see tower raising removed from the game too, but problem is that I both like and dislike the raising. It was great fun when you lay a siege to a tower to smash it to pieces - but if your trying to defend the tower it was less cool as the enemy could catapult it from a distance where you couldnt do anything unless you ran out of the tower to engage them. Being a ranger - this felt pretty damn meaningless. But I do understand the frustration people outside the tower must have felt when getting shot all the time by the people camping it.

/Ankh

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Gandelf
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Post by Gandelf »

Well, it sounds pretty much to me now that we're all wanting to go back to the old days, so what's all the fuss about?

Genedril... one reason why crafted armour is so expensive is because crafters don't have the large 6-piece armour/2 weapon orders anymore, so they have to up their prices to earn a living. If there were big orders again, prices would drop, because crafters would have more work.

OF > NF imo. The terrain was much more varied and interesting and the style of the old keeps were better and more in keeping with how they might actually have looked in the Dark Ages, rather than Medieaval Europe. I remember the fun of flushing out enemy stealthers who used to hang around at the end of the steep valleys at Cain and Ligen. Those were the days! I used to love the little journey from HPK to the first milegate in Mid frontier... do you follow the path, or take the shortcut over the snowy hill? Do you approach the milegate head on up the incline, or break left or right, just in case the enemy is watching? Do you hide behind the trees on the left as you approach, or risk going right up the middle on the muddy path?

Ahh, the old days! ;)

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Genedril
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Post by Genedril »

Gandelf wrote:Genedril... one reason why crafted armour is so expensive is because crafters don't have the large 6-piece armour/2 weapon orders anymore, so they have to up their prices to earn a living. If there were big orders again, prices would drop, because crafters would have more work.

Nope - that's what it cost me to craft those 3 items at cost. I didn't buy it from someone else. If I'd made it for someone else then the price would ahve to include my labour time & that'd whack it up even further.
Gandelf wrote:OF > NF imo. The terrain was much more varied and interesting and the style of the old keeps were better and more in keeping with how they might actually have looked in the Dark Ages, rather than Medieaval Europe. I remember the fun of flushing out enemy stealthers who used to hang around at the end of the steep valleys at Cain and Ligen. Those were the days! I used to love the little journey from HPK to the first milegate in Mid frontier... do you follow the path, or take the shortcut over the snowy hill? Do you approach the milegate head on up the incline, or break left or right, just in case the enemy is watching? Do you hide behind the trees on the left as you approach, or risk going right up the middle on the muddy path?

Ahh, the old days! ]

Fair enough - if that's what you want there's places that provide it for you - I just pointed out the issues with OF aren't any different from what people complain about in NF. If you really want OF then, as I said, there's places you can go back & relive the halcyon days of yore.

If you manage to get away from a bridge then the NF terrain is varied & interesting. The main problem is that 90% of the fights seem to now occur at a bridge or at a keep (maybe a little high really, but I'd place money on the fact that more people fight at those locations than anywhere else). The OF milegates were bottlenecks where a lot of fights took place & after a while running around Emain & Odins the scenery got a little tedious (well in mid I used to go snow blind, but such is the life of the bard squinting at the monitor trying not to miss inc).

The problem is people just don't move around NF - it's huge & yet everyone's in the same place (not just the same zone - invariably the same place more or less). Occasionally the masses will push out a bit from a bridge to a tower, or from one tower to another, or from whatever keep you hold in iRvR to an enemy tower but it's like watching WW1 revisited as they push & fallback over the same piece of ground endlessly (obviously I'm not that old that I remember WW1, but the comparrsion stands).

The things about NF that I hate are the towers & the porting. Take out the porting (people have to make their own way there & will choose different routes) & it'd open up a lot more of NF, remove the towers (might have to upgrade the keep guards a bit to compensate) & people have to get to a keep to defend it & enemy groups would have more to do than take a keep & sit in the thing waiting for incoming - some can take the keep, others can patrol for incoming, stealthers can try & monitor various incoming routes & take what they feel to be a suitable target or warn the attackers on the keep.. On top of that keep sieges wouldn't last so bleeding long.

Towers & porting (or the lack of) is the only thing I miss from OF.
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Post by <ankh> »

[quote="Gandelf"]Well, it sounds pretty much to me now that we're all wanting to go back to the old days, so what's all the fuss about?

OF > NF imo. The terrain was much more varied and interesting and the style of the old keeps were better and more in keeping with how they might actually have looked in the Dark Ages, rather than Medieaval Europe. I remember the fun of flushing out enemy stealthers who used to hang around at the end of the steep valleys at Cain and Ligen. Those were the days! I used to love the little journey from HPK to the first milegate in Mid frontier... do you follow the path, or take the shortcut over the snowy hill? Do you approach the milegate head on up the incline, or break left or right, just in case the enemy is watching? Do you hide behind the trees on the left as you approach, or risk going right up the middle on the muddy path?

Ahh, the old days! ]

I prefer NF as long as you dont have tower raising. Sure old frontiers was fun, but standing around the milegates was pretty damn boring as it was always zerged. So no way I would wanna go back to that.
"we're all wanting to go back to the old days"...how many people are we in this discussion? Compare to how many daoc players there are. You can't speak for everyone else.

/Ankh

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Post by Gandelf »

Genedril wrote:If you manage to get away from a bridge then the NF terrain is varied & interesting


It isn't though from my experience. It's too flat and the only mountains are the zone walls, with the odd hill here and there. Also the terrain is more or less the same for each realm's frontier, with the only difference being that Midgard has snow. Then you get those stupid places where you can't take a direct route to a keep or tower, but have to go the long way around (when porting is not possible, that is). There's those stupied embankments and hills you can't climb up. At least in OF you could go over the hills.
The fact that Mythic got relic keeps all wrong with NF is a blatant example of how OF was better. Mythic went to all that trouble of designing the new relic keeps, so that enemy relics could be held within them. What a joke! They failed to realise that it would be ridiculously hard for realms to get their own relics back from behind the relic wall, so what did they do? they made it so that enemy relics had to be held in a normal keep. All that effort of designing nice relic keeps all gone to the wind! What they should do is either bring the OF back, or redesign the NF bearing in mind their newly acquired wisdom of the balls-up they made the first time. ;)

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Post by Gandelf »

In all seriousness though, I accept that others like NF. Others like OF. Others like elements of both.
It would perhaps have satisfied everyone if Mythic had decided to give us a true Classic server, with OF, with perhaps the addition of SI. I think a lot of players would appreciate that. If you get fed up of the way the game is now, then you could always play on a true Classic server to get that "blast from the past".
I realise that we could argue about it until kingdom come, but it wouldn't achieve anything. I would be happy with a true Classic server to be made available. I think a lot of players might realise they miss the game as it used to be.

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