English as a universal language

[Cryn]

I still find it hard to reconcile what some of you are driving at with the comments I get day and daily fom a lot of English people I know many of whom readily cite shame and pride in the same breath associated with this empire and the dominance of the language. No matter. You choose to have it how you wish. I will nonetheless decide where I honestly feel I wish to come from and right now I took a big step away from where I traditionally thought I ought to feel welcome.

People do feel shame and pride, but that doesn't mean it's right. People say "It was the ENglish who oppressed the Irish and you're English, so you should feel ashamed." And put that way people buy it, because (a) guilt is a natural response to blame, whether the blame is warranted or not.

But there is another reason we feel shame and it's very simple to understand. It's because of labels and identity. If you are identified (by yourself and by others) by a label (such as "English") that is then used to identify the people who invaded Ireland, you identify yourself with those people.

If people were more precise, and included a generation number in the label, you'd not feel the same. If people say English386 invaded Ireland, but referred to you as English502, you'd easily seperate yourself. I'm not suggesting people do this, I'm just highlighting what I think is going on psychologically.

Shark, I would ask you to consider something about your feelings about English shame. I am English. I have a small amount of Scots blood, but it hasn't really impacted me culturally, and I feel part of the English culture. I think the English invasions and activities in Ireland were wrong. They are not actions I would take myself or support. I'd argue fiercely against them and I'd feel frustrated if my government backed them. So what cause have I got for shame?

I hear you when you say it's not about people, but you can't actually take the people out of it entirely. After all is said and done, it comes down to someone like me being made to feel like a bad person without ever having contributed to the crime.

The people trying to make people like me feel responsible or shameful are the people doing wrong, because they are spreading predjudice that is based upon race/nationality. Worse, they are contributing to a culture of hate. Feelings of resentment held by the Irish toward the English are equally wrong, because you are resenting innocent people for something done by someone else. Validating and reinforcing those feelings of resentment prevents us all moving on to a happy and peaceful situation.

I'm not saying you are doing those things, Shark, but it's where the idea of blaming people for actions of others eventually leads. It's been the basis of a lot of war (look at the Balkans, for example).

I don't pretend the English are saints today. The war in Iraq is a traversty and we are all responsible because we did not prevent it happening. But we should keep accountability to the things for which we are responsible and not muddy the waters with other issues.

[Craft]

can we maybe close this thread and start to make a new one with what the original post now no longer is and what this has become.. does that make sense?

hmm.. i dont like walking in the dark, i might stand on a snail or a slug, then you get the split second of sliding as well as a little stop and a gooey foot.. yum.

[Sharkith]

I am Northern Irish Cryn - I sit right in the middle of it all and I guess its that Irish side of my culture I am sensing. We had a thing called the peace process - shame played a big part in the healing process. It is a key cornerstone of redistributive justice for example.

Those codes are central to our identity and they help provide a framework for placing ourselves. I agree that they can be the basis of prejudice but in order to make your last points you have forgotten that I have said those codes can promote a positive sense of responsibility as well. I think you kind of want to have it both ways and continue to ignore that. Once more you also ignore the fact that I have said several times that we can without a doubt find historical remarks that will mark out feelings of shame.

Finally, you paint a picture of our anscestors that they were people incapable of feeling shame about slavery and the millions who died as a result of their policy of cash crops. In your rush to present a rational argument you have placed your anscestors into the box of monsters who felt nothing but simply rationally argued for the expansion of the British empire. I am certain you are wrong and that if we looked we could find a good proportion expressed shame at what was happening. This code is there and it has historical origns, what those are and when it begins I am not sure. As I said it would be interesting to find out.

You wish to write it off - in the interests of what? What kind of society are you promoting as a result Cryn? I fear that you are missing the fact that your promoting a society that is devoid of any remorse for what went wrong. Thats why I have to keep coming back and making the point over and over because I just simply cannot let that go unanswered.

[Kallima]

You wish to write it off - in the interests of what? What kind of society are you promoting as a result Cryn? I fear that you are missing the fact that your promoting a society that is devoid of any remorse for what went wrong. Thats why I have to keep coming back and making the point over and over because I just simply cannot let that go unanswered.

What I saw Cryn was talking about was that you can remember the past destructively. He made a good point about it making more sense to refer not just to nationality but to generations of that nationality, to make the point that the english generations alive today were not those whose actions you are complaining about but are distanced from it.

I would also make the point that when you are discussing things that happened before any of us were alive, the situation is complicated by people's habit of moving around and marrying strangers. A lot of people who would describe themselves as english today, have ancestry that was not english at the time you are talking about and was quite possibly on the other side of events.

I don't feel it is constructive to try and dump shame and guilt on people over the past, whatever the rights or wrongs. I am handicapped here, because I could give an extremely good personal example of something I could feel bitter about and hold people to blame for. I could say they should feel shame for the actions of the past. I have chosen not to do that because it would be destructive. I won't even give the example for that reason. That is not quite the same as writing it off, it is acknowledging that those who I would label as 'guilty' mostly were not alive then, took no part in it, and would agree with me that it was wrong. I am letting things move on.

If you want to describe it as writing it off, then in my case I am writing it off in the interests of future peace, happiness, and understanding, and all sorts of fluffy headed stuff like that. Remembering past grievances is the way to keep grudges and feuds and wars going.

You say you keep making the point over and over because you cannot let that go unanswered. I think people have tried to answer it. My point is that I might feel a mass murderer was an evil person and should answer for his crime, but I would not put his great grandchildren on trial for it.

[Tuthmes]

You say you keep making the point over and over because you cannot let that go unanswered. I think people have tried to answer it. My point is that I might feel a mass murderer was an evil person and should answer for his crime, but I would not put his great grandchildren on trial for it.

Depends if the evil person has answered for his crime. Also you can't compary a person to a whole nation. The Irish question has so many counterparts (The Jews, Slavetrade, Tibet, etc, etc). A nation as a whole can give its excuse's for what it has done in the past. If the public opinion is
strong enough, it can even ask/demand it from the goverement.

Your language defines your culture, your culture defines your language. One word can not be translated directly into another language, cause it's meaning is determend by the culture its in. Same goes for your family traditions and your own traditions. Whats important to you, may not be important to someone else. What taste/feels good for you may not be good for someone else.
Nationalism/Patriotism are the direct opposite of individualism/egoism.Funny enough a country like America holds both negative side's very high. Proud to be an American, but give a rats ass about anyone, but yourself.

As for me, i've bin living with my Indonesian gf for about 10 years. What Holland has done there in the past, can't never be set right. Nor what the Dutch did with the Indonesians that fought for Holland in 1948. Grandparents where set in old dutch concentrationcamps, childeren beeing split of their parents to live with dutch family's to integrate.
Anyways their culture still is very important for them. The differance between theirs and the Dutch is huge. If they wouldnt see me as i am, some obsticals would never be crossed. In the end, we all goto the toilet and take a dumb. We all cry when we feel sad, we all laugh when we're happy.

If only people would just get along peacefully and respec their differance's the world would be a better place!

Just my 2 euro cent's about a very interresting discussion!

[Gandelf]

There are too many variants in the history of the British Isles to pin shame on Britain alone. If you want to blame a race of people, then it makes no sense. Would there have been a British Empire if the Anglo-Saxons or the Vikings hadn't made their mark on the British Isles? What of the Normans? If William had been defeated at Hastings, would there have been a British Empire? So if you want to blame a race, why not blame the Saxons, the Angles, the Jutes, the Scandinavians or the Normans? And lets not forget the Romans and the Celts!

Britain has a history of being invaded. The spread of the British Empire could be a direct result of it's history of being invaded. It's very wrong to pin blame on the English, which seems to be the fashion these days. If there is to be any fingers pointed, then they should be pointed at the races who invaded the British Isles in the first place! That's where it all started!

[Succi]

I dont think all the answers will be resolved in this thread, so why bother :F

[Sharkith]

Ok I have re-read the thread now and an awful lot of good points have been made. I think I need to be fair - I think Ovi's last post was about the ethics of the code of shame and what it means for individuals. In short about wether or not it is a good or bad thing. I think Gwen has clarified that very well in her subsequent post and Thuth is equally right to state that this is not about individuals but nations and cultural memory.

So to clarify I think we have two discussions that are potentially confusing things and it is likely that we won't move forward on both at once.

The core of my argument is that society has a memory of shame and I am fairly confident that I could show elements of its emergence. I don't think anyone has directly refuted that point. I have yet to see an argument to convince me that it never existed. A lot of my objections here have been against statements that I think are inadvertently arguing for the codes non-existence and I think to remove it would be a very bad thing.

Ovi and Kallima are saying that to have a code of shame is unhelpful because it essentially justifies current wrongs by people who blame people of today because of these memories. On this I agree I have a lot of personal experience of similar things and ethically such codes can be deeply unhelpful. This does not mean however that the code does not exist or that you are forced to select that code in your communications about the Empire. It would also be wrong of me to continue this discussion by insisting that you 'have' to do this. That is not my intention.

So apologies if you have felt that you must accept the code as part of your personal identification - the point is that it is there and people can decide to associate themselves with it or they can choose to ignore it. I find it a useful code and I think thats because of sensitivities from a very recent past. I also think it can be used productively. I can also agree as Ovi and Kallima have said that it can be a bad thing but I would be with them in objecting to such a cultural thing being used as a weapon. Lijkewise I never once said that the sole definition of the empire should be one of shame - it happens to be a theme that shapes how 'I' see it thats all.

I hope this helps because I seemed to be spirialling out of control in my two most recent posts. Having re-read the thread it seems that the ethical dillema for perosns is a recurring theme and one I didn't pay sufficient attention to.

[Tuthmes]

So apologies if you have felt that you must accept the code as part of your personal identification - the point is that it is there and people can decide to associate themselves with it or they can choose to ignore it. I find it a useful code and I think thats because of sensitivities from a very recent past. I also think it can be used productively. I can also agree as Ovi and Kallima have said that it can be a bad thing but I would be with them in objecting to such a cultural thing being used as a weapon. Lijkewise I never once said that the sole definition of the empire should be one of shame - it happens to be a theme that shapes how 'I' see it thats all.

Your point is spot on. Also (and here we go) you might find it usefull, but as stated in your point, its for people themself to be associated with it or not.
So yeah the discussion is about nations and culture, but funny enough the individual holds the most rights in that discussion. As soon as we forget that the individual has to be respected to most, we go wrong.

[Cryn]

I am Northern Irish Cryn - I sit right in the middle of it all and I guess its that Irish side of my culture I am sensing. We had a thing called the peace process - shame played a big part in the healing process. It is a key cornerstone of redistributive justice for example.

Those codes are central to our identity and they help provide a framework for placing ourselves. I agree that they can be the basis of prejudice but in order to make your last points you have forgotten that I have said those codes can promote a positive sense of responsibility as well. I think you kind of want to have it both ways and continue to ignore that. Once more you also ignore the fact that I have said several times that we can without a doubt find historical remarks that will mark out feelings of shame.

Firstly, let's be clear - the Northern Ireland peace process has as its primary focus an attempt to end wrong doings TODAY. Things that are still going on. People are or have been part of the bad things happened and hence have feelings of responsibility. This is completely different from someone feeling responsible for the actions of their ancestors. The situation in Northern Ireland owes its roots to things our ancestors did, but beatings, hatred, bigotry, bombings and shootings on all sides have been done by people alive today.

Finally, you paint a picture of our anscestors that they were people incapable of feeling shame about slavery and the millions who died as a result of their policy of cash crops. In your rush to present a rational argument you have placed your anscestors into the box of monsters who felt nothing but simply rationally argued for the expansion of the British empire.

I'm sorry this is the picture I painted, whether it was my description or your interpretation (or more likely both) in error. I was talking solely about whether people today should feel ashamed for the bad actions of our ancestors. I had no intention of implying that our ancestors felt no shame themselves or that they never did a good deed. Those issues are irrelevant to the point I was trying to make to a large degree, I feel.

To me, the code you describe is a simplification (as I tried to explain earlier) of the real things that are going on. We remember shame because we remember history and we sympathise with the characters. We often feel part of a group and share their shame because we are labelled as being part of that group, and the label is so big, so obvious (and yet so wrong) that we don't challenge it. Individuals have a predisposition to guilt, not because an allegation of blame is right, but because we've all are sensitive to our own (completely unrelated) failings.

You wish to write it off - in the interests of what? What kind of society are you promoting as a result Cryn? I fear that you are missing the fact that your promoting a society that is devoid of any remorse for what went wrong. Thats why I have to keep coming back and making the point over and over because I just simply cannot let that go unanswered.

The sort of society I am promoting, if that's how you see it, is a society where (as I originally said) people learn from the past but don't take on inappropriate responsibility for things they had no part in. More importantly I suppose is the flip side, which is to say that people do not hate someone today for actions they had no part of.

There are other feelings in the range of human emotion other than shame. I've not said we should not sympathise or feel sad at lamentable events. In fact, if people were to do this without confusing the issue with inappropriate blame and shame, we may well learn a lot more from the past and become better for it. Often, feeling responsible for something makes people defensive and aggressive rather than contrite.

When you get right down to it, prejudice is prejudice. I am not ignoring your claim that positive things can come of people feeling responsible for events of the past, I am disputing it. I think those same positive things could come from learning from the past even if don't make ourselves responsible, and we'd do it without the prejudice.

You know, when I read about the activities of the English in Ireland, I often identify with the Irish, not the English.