English as a universal language

[Xest]

The argument you are constructing is an analogy in order for it to work the analogy has to be directly comparable. It is a weak form of arguement because invariably analogies are not similar enough for them to be workable.

But in this case it is, the notation and rules used in mathematics is equivalent to a language in itself.

Mathematics does not compare on the basic attribute of my argument because mathematics is not something I see as specifically integral to my self identity as a British citizen. I cannot see any shame in mathematics in other words.

Are you saying you don't see shame in the relevant parts of mathematics equally to the English language because mathematics is so well ingrained into our lives that you don't think about the history of it's spread like you do the English language?

[Cromcruaich]

It is my opinion that the proof is still there to be discovered and I think there is a lot of it to be found. Considering the size of Iraq and all the desert there is, I think it's quite possible that there are huge quantities of biological/chemical weapons buried under the sand in metal bunkers/containers. Let's face it, the first thing anyone with such an a.r.s.enal* of deadly weaponry would do, if they knew they were going to be inspected, is hide it. You certainly wouldn't willingly give it all up. It's a bit like finding a needle in a haystack, but it's there somewhere.

*edit: nerf the profanity filter!

Really?!

These weapons need to be manufactured in erm, factories. Its not the weapons you look for but the ability to manufacture them, which ofcourse doesnt exist in Iraq. Many efforts have gone into trying to identify and find sites of biological and chemical weapons (which really arnt WMD, its just an evocative phrase for the media) including the torture (and continuing torture) of illegally held prisoners, if there was any shred of evidence you could bet it would be all over the media.

Do you remember before the iraq war, they were fucking over afghanistan to the equal outrage of many people, their stated goal was to bring osama bin laden to justice, that goal has not been achieved, and the war still goes on in afghanistan, but who cares?

Also just before the iraq war, remember that the UN weapons inspectors were actually in the country inspecting weapons as legitmately agreed, in addition, about 2 weeks before the start Iraq disarmed its long range missiles as a capitulation to the UN, and to show that they accept the presence of the UN inspecters in the country and will fully cooperate with them. Bet they regret that one now.

[Sharkith]

Ovi,

fair point and I agree we simply differ in our opinion. I find the generalisation productive and you object its quite simple.

Xest I understand that you chose mathematics because it is very like a language I get that bit. Its why it seems like a good candidate for your argument but it fails in this case on the crucial issue of identification. Mathematics is not specifically British although it is certainly part of the general occidental tradition of which Western Europeans and North Americans are a part. Whilst it is part of our identity it is not exclusively a British thing. We can discuss occidental rationality and its dominance globally but that is a very different discussion. It might even be more productive to discuss the relative strengths and weaknesses of 'shame' as part of national identification. Think of Germany and Japan post second world war?

In all of this I have to agree that in the future English will most likely shake off these old associations especially as it becomess more and more diffuse with the effects of globalisation. For now I feel it has some way to go.

Sharkith

[Cromcruaich]

Sorry, cant read through all this, not sure exactly what the interesting argument is about.

Is it that we should be ashamed of english, or speaking english, or just of the english empire and our imperialist past? Or am I off the mark.

On a seperate thread, anyone who believes military action in the middle east can ever bring peace has got to be mad. The thing to remember is that by far the majority of muslims arnt terrorists, they are just people, like you and me, a different colour maybe, a different religion, maybe, they buy bread and milk to feed their children, they go to work, they want to be left in peace. Put yourself in their place, its a point I think Luz made, if you see your babies, your children, your parents shot and/or mutilated, where does that leave you, what opinions do you form? Bacause you know for certain every second of everyday in Iraq and Afghanistan injustices will be performed by the occupiers, both deliberate and accidental, they will continue to stay in the psyche of the Iraq and Afghanistan peoples, and in the muslim world as a whole. The wounds will not be healed in our life times, and probably not for generations.

We have plenty enough to be ashamed about right now, without worrying about our imperialist past.

[Xest]

Xest I understand that you chose mathematics because it is very like a language I get that bit. Its why it seems like a good candidate for your argument but it fails in this case on the crucial issue of identification. Mathematics is not specifically British although it is certainly part of the general occidental tradition of which Western Europeans and North Americans are a part. Whilst it is part of our identity it is not exclusively a British thing. We can discuss occidental rationality and its dominance globally but that is a very different discussion. It might even be more productive to discuss the relative strengths and weaknesses of 'shame' as part of national identification. Think of Germany and Japan post second world war?

No no no! Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I wasn't saying Mathematics was in anyway British, my point was that should the Greeks feel shame for their mathematical notation being spread? Should the Spanish feel shame for their language also being spread and should the Italians feel shame for their architecture being spread? - all through the same questionable means. My point was that if we're to see shame in the English language then surely everyone has something to be shameful of because so many nations have something that was spread in much the same way that English was spread.

Whilst the deaths caused by the spread of the British empire, or following my example, Alexanders empire may provide big numbers of casualties, how many lives have been saved or improved through the years by a generalised mathematical notation or a common language?

[Xest]

On a seperate thread, anyone who believes military action in the middle east can ever bring peace has got to be mad.

I think realistically you could deal with the issue with military action if you went the full way and neutralised Syria and Iran as well as forced Pakistan to round up it's instigators then mopped up in Afghanistan and Iraq. The downside is that's a whole lot of lives lost, a hell of a lot of money spent and a hell of a lot of soldiers needed as well as a whole lot of time required.

What we're doing however is a half-assed approach where we send in a few thousand soldiers which isn't enough to deal with the problem in the way described above so it doesn't help anyone.

As you say however this is all irrelevant when there's better ways of dealing with the problem so whilst I think military action has potential done right, I don't think it's the way to go and the way to deal with it. I guess it goes back to what I said earlier in the thread - for military action to work you need a tragedy, hundreds of thousands to millions of lives lost before people stop and think "We can't let this ever happen again" ala World War II and the peace we now have in Europe as a result. Again though, absolutely no one wants to see that kind of tragedy happen so ideally we need to pursue other means and not go with the half assed approach we have now which prolongs the problem.

It's a bit like when people have an annoying little injury of some sort and they just sit picking and picking at it making it worse, prolonging the healing

[Cromcruaich]

I think realistically you could deal with the issue with military action if you went the full way and neutralised Syria and Iran as well as forced Pakistan to round up it's instigators then mopped up in Afghanistan and Iraq. The downside is that's a whole lot of lives lost, a hell of a lot of money spent and a hell of a lot of soldiers needed as well as a whole lot of time required.

What we're doing however is a half-assed approach where we send in a few thousand soldiers which isn't enough to deal with the problem in the way described above so it doesn't help anyone.

As you say however this is all irrelevant when there's better ways of dealing with the problem so whilst I think military action has potential done right, I don't think it's the way to go and the way to deal with it. I guess it goes back to what I said earlier in the thread - for military action to work you need a tragedy, hundreds of thousands to millions of lives lost before people stop and think "We can't let this ever happen again" ala World War II and the peace we now have in Europe as a result. Again though, absolutely no one wants to see that kind of tragedy happen so ideally we need to pursue other means and not go with the half assed approach we have now which prolongs the problem.

It's a bit like when people have an annoying little injury of some sort and they just sit picking and picking at it making it worse, prolonging the healing

Yup, agree with you.

[Sharkith]

No no no! Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I wasn't saying Mathematics was in anyway British, my point was that should the Greeks feel shame for their mathematical notation being spread? Should the Spanish feel shame for their language also being spread and should the Italians feel shame for their architecture being spread? - all through the same questionable means. My point was that if we're to see shame in the English language then surely everyone has something to be shameful of because so many nations have something that was spread in much the same way that English was spread.

Whilst the deaths caused by the spread of the British empire, or following my example, Alexanders empire may provide big numbers of casualties, how many lives have been saved or improved through the years by a generalised mathematical notation or a common language?

Thanks that is much clearer now Xest. The argument I presented that English as a language has attached to it associations of shame is more directed at establishing the 'fact' of shame. The question whether or not people should or ought to feel ashamed is a question for ethics. That is a seperate issue which we could seperate from the original point and explore quite productively.

I think the crucial issue is how cultural memories and sentiments remain and why. What function they perform? Certainly Germany and Japan have used their shame productively. In answer to Crom - perhaps if we payed more heed to the wrongs we have committed in the past and nurtured a sentiment of shame we would be less hasty to continue to replicate similar errors today?

This kind of debunks my own argument because if we were so ashamed perhaps we would not be so quick to rush into Iraq to generate still more almighty fuck ups. Obviously I am in a minority.

[Xest]

To be fair Sharkith I'm not sure you are a minority, unless it's just the media using it's dominant position to thrust it's views onto us as it does I get the impression most people were against the war on Iraq but again as I say my idea of "most people" is only the idea the media has fed me so who knows

[Cromcruaich]

You can ofcourse see why they have targetted Iraq and Afghanistan, and soon to be Iran. It means they can control all ground piped oil from the middle east, including Saudi to both russia and china. I imagine they consider it essential to control this for American interests, especially with China starting to ramp up its manufacturing industries and economic strength, and in the future when supplies become restricted. You cant remain a military power if your destroyers and planes havent got any fuel. You certainly couldnt run them off solar panels.

Take a look at an atlas, it tells a story.