Deleted Thread on FH - read here (concerns Synergy)

[Genedril]

I agree with 99% of what Shike gets at, but... if people starting adding on Synergy (as you seem to be suggesting - my apologies if I read it wrong) a. You're doing what you condemn someone else for doing & b. You're spoiling the fight of the other people involved (who were initially engaged with them).

However, if you're suggesting that if you're fighting another group & Synergy come along then you all pile after Synergy and ignore each other (unless it's an alb group then, they all nip off & put the kettle on) then that's a different kettle of fish (community justice can be a harsh mistress to annoy).

Aran has a point about fair fights, we're not all lvl 1 bases classes after all. What's fair, how do you decide it - why don't you want adds, where are add's acceptable, why fg's shouldn't steam roller solo'ers. These are points to talk about & try & come to some agreement that doesn't involve hurling insults around.

[<ankh>]

I will get really suprised if this discussion actually solves anything but gl!

/Ankh

[Lairiodd]

The problem with any negotiation is that both sides have to make compromises, otherwise there is no point in the side that is losing out to agree. Atm, (by game rules), adding is not considered a violation. Some people think that is a good situation and some don't. This means that a no adding rule will never become generally accepted.

For a generally accepted community wide rule/guideline to be agreed, people representing each viewpoint would need to come to a reasonable compromise and also everyone would have to agree that they will be bound by it. The problem is that comming to a compromise would be hard as some of the viewpoints are diametrically opposed. Each viewpoint would have to agree to give up something in exchange for getting their way.

Another option is to create a guideline and then ask guilds to agree to it. A guild which signs up would get benefits of some kind but they would also have to comply with the rules. Also, there would need to be a set way to determine if someone was breaking the rules.

For the no-adding guideline it could be something like:

No Adding Agreement

who is bound by the agreement
- guild groups who are party to the agreement
- groups where the majority of members (or more than 2?) are in the agreement
- this only applies to combat in <list of zones>
what is adding?
- adding consists of entering a 1fg vs 1fg fight that is in progress, except in self defense
- this does not apply if there is more than 16 involved in the combat
- this does not apply if all those in combat are realm enemies (maybe?)
- adding is permitted against guilds outside the agreement who have been deemed to add excessively under the disputes system
Conduct of members of guilds in the agreement
- when in a pug that is not bound by the agreement, adding should be discouraged
- Guilds in the agreement shall all have cloaks with emblems (or some other way to mark them) (maybe?)
- When passing a fg vs fg fight, groups should /bow (or some other emote) to indicate that they are not entering combat (maybe?)
- members will use the dispute mechanism rather than creating "add whine" threads
joining the agreement
- any guild may join irrespective of realm
- the GM(s) of the guild commit the guild to the agreement
- the GM's are required to tell their guild members about the agreement
- a list of all guilds who are party to the agreement will be maintained as a sticky in <forum>
disputes
- a complaint may only be lodged with video evidence
- it is recommended that one person in every guild group run video capture (if possible)
- A complaint is posted <agreement forum>, the accused may post their side of the story
- the GM's of the guilds who are not involved in the dispute will vote to determine if adding occured (based on video evidence)
- the GM's may also vote for some form of penalty
- (maybe add a minimum last week rps before a guild can vote so only active guilds can vote)
- the decision of the vote will be added to the thread
penalty
- A guild is told to warn a specific guild member/group
- a warning is issued to the entire guild
- 1 week exclusion where adding against them is permitted
- 1 month exclusion where adding against them is permitted
changing agreement
- the agreement may be changed by majority vote of all guilds in the agreement
Leaving the agreement
- a guild may leave the agreement by giving 1 weeks notice

This means that there would be very few "whine" threads. There is a mechanism to determine if guilds are adding so there is less likelyhood of people randomly making accusations.

Also, it doesn't require that every guild agree. If a guild which is 95% pve doesn't agree, then there is not much loss as they would not rvr much. Also, it looks like this dispute is between guilds that both agree that reducing adding is a good thing. This means that such an agreement could be effective.

In addition, even if only a small number of guilds agree, there is still an incentive to not add against members of the agreement as if you do they can get your guild marked as an a guild which adds excessively using the dispute system.

Finally, by limiting the penalty to max 1 month of being excluded from protection, guilds who "learned their lesson" can become part of the system.

[<ankh>]

Nice idea Lairiodd, but no offence - it was a waste of time. That idea would only work if daoc was a game for guilds who followed certain rules and nothing else. But with thousands of individuals playing the game their own way you can't expect many people to follow those rules. Also, I think making up rules like those will make you sound abit too elitish for some players to even wanna bother with it. I don't think people want other players telling them what they may and may not do. But had GOA implanted a similar rule it would be a whole different matter ofcourse.

Edit: if people have problems following CoC's and dislike what mods make - this will most certainly be something they wont bother with.

/Ankh

[Treeeebeard]

Despite not beeing part of the FG v FG scene (pretty much ever) I do think thats a good idea which could be usefull lairiodd and considerd by thoses FG v FG guilds

[<ankh>]

I think the main problem is that some people are unable to respect others as long as they just see a handle on the screen and nothing else. Had you been face to face in RL with people they would proberbly have had much easier to respect. Its like with forums, people hid behind their handle and act like idiots knowing the other guy cant do anything what so ever to punish him for his deeds. In the forums they can get banned by the mods who usually are players, but in the game the only one who can actually punish are the GM's.

Without any real power you just cant expect people to play fair or follow any rules. It's like telling a burglar that "I wont steal from you unless you steal from me!" which will hardly stop the burglar from commiting his crimes...or something similar

edit: and btw Danny, you smell.

/Ankh

[Thandruil]

if some people agree that they go to lagramon to get FGfights they are in their right to do so, just to get away from the zerglings. Agramon isnt an especially trafficed area anyway normally.

if some other people go there, and add, despite the agreement, they are abusing the previous agreement, since they will know there will be FGfights there to leech on.

First of all, i didn't read all the posts, cause i just cba anymore. It's always the same adding discussion.

I did quote Shike, cause i have a question. Who of all the players in game have the right to make agreements about certain zones and make rules?? It's not cause there are players who want 8vs8 RvR fights, that it gives them the right to flame other realm mates cause they attacked the enemy. Killing the enemy in RvR is what it's all about tbh. I can understand that there are people who want 8vs8 fight, but at no time it does give them the right to flame people once they got added. Nor does it give them the right to make certain agreements, about which half the realm doesn't even know they excist.
Everyone has his/her way of playing the game, and as long as Mythic thinks it's fair to kill an enemy when u c him, even when it's a 1vs1 fight, no1 should get flamed for doing so. It's the game, get over it.
I've said it before, if u want 8vs8 fights without being added, go play Guildwars. There u can enter a zone with only 2fg's.

In the end, discussions like this about adding or not adding only ruin the game for those who still enjoy it atm, for those who are still here.

I find it very sad to read post like the ones from Norcott where they say they get killed while 4/5 people from their realm are just watching. And even after yelling for help, they just don't help.
If this happens to u a few times, u either give up on RvR, or just give up playing.

Everyone pays for his own subs and doing that gives him the right to play the game the way he enjoys it. And as long as there are no extra RvR zones made, where only 2fg's can enter at a time, or just 2 people from an opposite realm, no1 should ever get flamed.
Yes even the people who enjoy 8vs8 and have a policy not to add have the right to play the game in the way they want to. But it still doesn't give anyone the right to make agreements about adding rules.

The not adding rule sometimes gets really ridiculous. A few days ago i was with a fg defending Behn while it was under attack. I guess there were about 30 hibs there and prolly same amount or albs. And all of a sudden someone yells in broad channel: DO NOT ADD!
It's getting very stupid tbh when people already start whining about adding in a keep defence.

Less whine, more playing together with the people who are still here imo. Don't make those who are left run away, otherwise in a few months chances are there are no people left, who u gonna kill then?

[Thandruil]

edit: and btw Danny, you smell.

/Ankh

OMG ur so gay In private pm's u always try to chat me up and lure me in to ur bed

[<ankh>]

Well said Danny, and the part about the keep defence was just plain silly

/Ankh

[Thandruil]

Well said Danny, and the part about the keep defence was just plain silly

/Ankh

Was silly aye, i nearly fell of my chair laughing when i read that, should've taken a screenie