Topical Discussion - Please try to get overly angry/upset

[OohhoO]

capitalism is the main driving force of progress.

This (whilst probably unfortunately correct) is a perfect example of the abysmaly low level of human spiritual, social & psychological development. Progress for individual profit rather than general good. Think of the possibilities for progress if every child was able to develop its potential unhindered!, & in directions other than pure personal greed!

Progress in the right directions is usually a good thing.
OTOH too much progress too fast or in the wrong directions can be very bad. Progress isn't free (especially capitalist "progress"), and the price is usually paid in terms of ruined lives, which you might think is fine until it hits you or those you care about (& which capitalists then usually don't want to have to pay for - take the profit, but don't pay for the damage!)

[Takitothemacs]

OK, can I just say thanks all for the input... I was a little concerned that this topic could be flamed all to hell... but thankfully my faith in the members here has once again reassured me that it is possible to have some good in depth and intelligent discussion. Now lets transfer this over to the main boards too

and on the subject of faith... from The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams.

"I refuse to prove I exist," says God. "For prove denies faith and without faith I am nothing."
"Ah," said man, "but the Babel fish is a dead giveaway - it proves you exist so therefore you don't - QED."
"Ah, I hadn't thought of that," said God and promptly disappeared in a puff of logic.

:D

[Moley:)]

[quote="Takitothemacs"]OK, can I just say thanks all for the input... I was a little concerned that this topic could be flamed all to hell... but thankfully my faith in the members here has once again reassured me that it is possible to have some good in depth and intelligent discussion. Now lets transfer this over to the main boards too ]

Luckily i didn't give my input then

:moley:

[Maeloch]

I was a little concerned that this topic could be flamed all to hell...

And in a discussion that covered god, capitalism and animal rights. I think it was just the weekend and peeps not bored at work drinking teeth grinding quantities of coffee.

[Cryn]

Er, actually the laws of physics conclusively proof that there is absolutely no possibility for the existence of god.

We should be careful about viewing physics as conclusively proving anything, given that there are still huge gaps in our understanding of the fundamental nature of the universe we live in.

All science has been able to produce to date are a series of theorems, each of which has needed throwing away or significant adjustment when the next one comes along.

It's also worth considering that for almost everyone on the planet, faith in the cosmological "proofs" put forward by our leading scientists is very similar to the faith religious people have in the doctrine put forward by their holy men.

The number of people who are able to grasp mathematics to a sufficiently advanced degree to understand the proofs underpinning our understanding of physics is incredibly small. For the rest of us, we just have faith that the eggheads know what they're talking about. You might as well say call us the Followers of the Eggheads and build us some clinically clean temples.

capitalism is the main driving force of progress.

Capitalism drives a TYPE of progress. But is that progress taking us somewhere good? Is it progress towards peace, prosperity, happiness and equality? A quick look around the state of the world might suggest not.

Who knows? Maybe a capitalism-free world would have enabled us to progress in other ways that would have led us somewhere better.

[Cyfr]

Somewhere better being a dirty communist hell hole?

[Xest]

All science has been able to produce to date are a series of theorems, each of which has needed throwing away or significant adjustment when the next one comes along.

Thank you for proving precisely what I'm talking about. The fact is that those who deny the proof that's there do it with such blinding ignorance that they only serve to prove that they don't even understand what it is that they're disagreeing with. Even high school science allows you to conduct countless experiments such that you can prove for yourself that a lot of theories you're taught at that level are fact.

I've yet to see a religious education lesson that conclusively proves the feeding of the 5,000, that you really can survive being eaten by a whale for days, that someone can make the sea part at will and that creationism are fact however.

The number of people who are able to grasp mathematics to a sufficiently advanced degree to understand the proofs underpinning our understanding of physics is incredibly small.

I know the media keeps telling us we have a shortage of scientists, but honestly the amount of degree level physicists is not "incredibly small" by any measure because degree level is enough to understand the principles of space, time and cosmology amongst other things that prove the impossiblity of many religious tales and disprove any possibility of the existence of deities as they're described by most religions.

[Lairiodd]

This (whilst probably unfortunately correct) is a perfect example of the abysmaly low level of human spiritual, social & psychological development. Progress for individual profit rather than general good. Think of the possibilities for progress if every child was able to develop its potential unhindered!, & in directions other than pure personal greed!

We are just going to have to differ in our opinions here. Capitalism is the opposite of slavery. Do you think it is right to force one person to help another person ?

Economic theory shows that a free market (with zero transactional costs) does best at maximising the distribution of goods. Any change would result in decrease in total welfare. The only time it doesn't is if you don't let a person work out what they consider important themselves.

Capitalism gives people what they want, people should be allowed to decide what they consider important on their own rather than one person (or group) telling everyone what they *should* want.

Progress in the right directions is usually a good thing.
OTOH too much progress too fast or in the wrong directions can be very bad. Progress isn't free (especially capitalist "progress"), and the price is usually paid in terms of ruined lives, which you might think is fine until it hits you or those you care about (& which capitalists then usually don't want to have to pay for - take the profit, but don't pay for the damage!)

Well, that just means we need to extend property rights . If people were allowed to own rivers, then there would probably be less pollution. Alternatively, if more people don't care about rivers, then there might be more. This is fair, as no one person is telling others what they should do.

In any case, things like compulsory social welfare are a better example of people being protected from the consequencies of their actions and forcing others to provide for them. In its pure form (not exactly attainable), capitalism doesn't shield anyone from the consequences of their actions.

[Gandelf]

We should be careful about viewing physics as conclusively proving anything, given that there are still huge gaps in our understanding of the fundamental nature of the universe we live in.

All science has been able to produce to date are a series of theorems, each of which has needed throwing away or significant adjustment when the next one comes along.

Well said! The Laws of Physics are incomplete. No-one has yet put forward a theory that unifies all branches of Physics. Until that happens, no-one can conclusively deny the existence of God&#8212]I've yet to see a religious education lesson that conclusively proves the feeding of the 5,000, that you really can survive being eaten by a whale for days, that someone can make the sea part at will and that creationism are fact however.[/quote]

Well, no-one could disprove that those things happened. To do that you would have to build a time-machine and go back and prove categorically that they didn't happen. I could say the same thing about the Big Bang... unless you were there when it happened, you can't actually prove that it did! For all we know, God might have made the universe to make it look as if a Big Bang happened... you can't prove that is not what happened!

[Satyn]

I think Gandy found himself a friend

I'm happy for ppl that believe in a god, but its not for me anymore. I used to be a big believer but read to much the past years to make me start to think (thinking is very bad) and for me it all changed from a nice book to a load of bullshit. I need to see it with my own eyes now before I will ever change my mind again.