Is it Zerg or Bust for the casual player in RvR nowadays?

Wyst · Post by **Wyst** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:03 am

I think most people who have got a character to high RR as part of a set group etc would find it easier to get a second group underway as they have already gained the experience of the fg rvr scene, have already learnt useful tactics and are likely to only want to play in another opted setup once all group members have all done their templates and got stuff ready so all the tools except RAs are available to them.

It would be interesting to see tho as I wonder if they would at some point run into the same issues I am describing or whether they would be able to compete with the High RR groups once they passed RR5 due to the prior experience gained.

I also wonder how many of them would get frustrated at not being competitive for a while and eventually just going back to the original high RR character they have.

Ovi · Post by **Ovi** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:12 am

Elrandhir wrote:ofcourse you wil have an advantage, and if you havent got any RA's atall more or less, and Encounter a group with more or less only RR10 or something like that, well ofcourse it wont go well, and it shouldent, thats why you will have to try and avoide groups like that if the whole group is really low and go for lower RR groups and such.

I wouldent mind starting over on a new char and even in a new group, is a rather interessting challange, it would be hard at first, but it you have people with you that know how to play then you will advance fast.

Why shoudn't it go well though?

The RR10 group already have the advantages of experience with the characters, probably of playing together a lot and often better equipment. With *only* those advantages if the rr1 group play better they can still win.

The RAs change it so that the rr1 will lose 99% (If not more) of the time, no matter how well they play.

The new RA system is better, at least 2xrr1 groups do stand a chance against a rr10 group, unlike previously when a rr10 group could pretty much farm a rr1-rr4 zerg all day.

Mythic have also helped by giving other means to earn RPs than just killing enemy players, doing the frontier tasks etc. The problem is that means earning RvR rewards without RvRing

If creating a seperate area for <rr5 people doesn't work, then maybe give <rr5 people a reward for RvRing even if they don't kill the enemy? At least this would give some encouragement to lower rr more casual players as their scores would keep ticking.

Maybe 20% of the RP worth of the player that kills you, and only <rr5 players get the reward? This means you get some reward for RvRing, win or lose, until rr5. I think from rr5 onards the differences are more reasonable, as long as Mythic don't extend the Realm ranks too far.

Elrandhir · Post by **Elrandhir** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:04 pm

Well this is how I see think!
I belive those being much higher RR then you should have the advantage they have over you as they have played it so much.

Whomever plays RvR much will get experience and gain RR's rather fast, so after awhile the RR wont differ to much and then you will be able to compete with them.

Im no leet wtfp00wn RvRer if compairing to some, still I think it's resonable the way it is really, maby there are changes that could be made for the better or worse, there usually is, but if you want and spend some time RvRing you will get the experience and RR.

Ofcourse it will be hard on those starting from scratch, but I don't think that to be strange as I have said before when a game has been up and running as long as Daoc have.

Cryn · Post by **Cryn** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:07 pm

Elrandhir wrote:ofcourse you will have an advantage, and if you havent got any RA's atall more or less, and Encounter a group with more or less only RR10 or something like that, well ofcourse it wont go well, and it shouldent, thats why you will have to try and avoide groups like that if the whole group is really low and go for lower RR groups and such.

I wouldent mind starting over on a new char and even in a new group, is a rather interessting challange, it would be hard at first, but it you have people with you that know how to play then you will advance fast.

Well, the thing I have a problem with, kinda like Ovi says above is that a more experienced and successful group already has advantages without adding in RAs and passives.

If you look at most competitive games, the people who control it set it up to aim for fair competition, so that the competition itself is interesting rather than being one-side. Most games do this by including a mechanism for ensuring that good teams play people of comparable skill/experience. This done through various things like divisions (football, rugby, etc) and ranking systems for tournament invites (eg. tennis), but some cases, like horse-racing, they even go so far as to handicap based on form.

DAoC (and most other MMORPGs) is the opposite of that. If someone wins, we give them something to make it easier for them to win next time. The fact this is at odds with more established competitive games should probably tell us something.

You even say in your post low rr groups should try to avoid high RR groups but there's no mechanism in game to support this. High RR groups can - and generally do - go everywhere a low RR group can go. There's really no way to seek a fight based on RR.

Elrandhir · Post by **Elrandhir** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:32 pm

If to talk fair you can't really get everything fair either in a game like this because of some being able to get everything they need itemwise etc.

If everything should be fair then if so everything you use in RvR should be able to be lets say craftable and at not a to high price(or maby anyone entering a PvP area should get Insta geared with PvP area gear), but these things also have to do with how much time people are able to spend playing the game, and in a game like this you need time.

A fair game are games like Unreal tournament, CS and games like that.

ohwell back to what I was going to say.
I have heard about a patch thats comming making everyone getting silly amounts of RP/kill, and this will decrease the time getting higher RR for sure after awhile all who plays now and again will easy be rather high RR, good for some, but I think it's robbing those who have spent alot time in getting high by doing so.

Lets compare it to a crafter haveing spent ages getting LGM and not long after a patch arrives making anyone getting to LGM in afew days, I would probably stop playing if I was him.

could be abit harsh comparing it like that, but to some it probably aplies.

OohhoO · Post by **OohhoO** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:08 pm

You might think it's a betrayal of High-RR players to make it easier to get RPs, but what other ideas can you bring which you think Mythic should implement to make it worth a low-RR or casual-players time to go the wrong side of DL? Cos basically RvR is almost a complete waste of time for those players as it is now. Losing 99% (or more) (as someone else said) of fights doesn't net a lot of RPs, & I could fill a new account with L50s in less time than it would currently take me to get 1 toon from RR1L1 to RR5L0 (& have a lot more fun in the process!), wether from trying to fight or from doing RvR-tasks.

Elrandhir · Post by **Elrandhir** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:36 pm

OohhoO wrote:You might think it's a betrayal of High-RR players to make it easier to get RPs, but what other ideas can you bring which you think Mythic should implement to make it worth a low-RR or casual-players time to go the wrong side of DL? Cos basically RvR is almost a complete waste of time for those players as it is now. Losing 99% (or more) (as someone else said) of fights doesn't net a lot of RPs, & I could fill a new account with L50s in less time than it would currently take me to get 1 toon from RR1L1 to RR5L0 (& have a lot more fun in the process!), wether from trying to fight or from doing RvR-tasks.

Well some players think it's a waste of time doing any PvE, still it's an RPG game and PvE is parth of it, sometimes doing nothing is the best way, instead of doing to much.

those who don't PvE much, Will be worse at that, and they will get worse gear, less money etc, what should we do about it?

Some will have much of both neways as they have endless amount of time spending on playing the game =P (but thats just how it is, those haveing more time to play will get more)

have to see it both ways as I have said.

We can't get everything Equal for Casual and hardcore players in a MMORPG tbh.

Cryn · Post by **Cryn** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:02 pm

Elrandhir wrote:If to talk fair you can't really get everything fair either in a game like this because of some being able to get everything they need itemwise etc.

Actually this is exactly what I think PvP/RvR MMORPGs should do within certain (tight) tolerances. I've always thought that crafting and PvE should be about entertainment, not character progression. The rewards from it should be about style and flavour, rather than skills and abilities.

The problem is we're still in the dark ages (hoho

) when it comes to content and incentivising gameplay. Character progression is provided as a quick and dirty form of keeping people hooked, but eventually maybe someone will move onto truly engaging content and will be able to do away with those kinda carrots. Whoever gets to that stage is going to have much less trouble balancing their mechanics.

Elrandhir · Post by **Elrandhir** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:19 pm

Cryn wrote:Actually this is exactly what I think PvP/RvR MMORPGs should do within certain (tight) tolerances. I've always thought that crafting and PvE should be about entertainment, not character progression. The rewards from it should be about style and flavour, rather than skills and abilities.

The problem is we're still in the dark ages (hoho ) when it comes to content and incentivising gameplay. Character progression is provided as a quick and dirty form of keeping people hooked, but eventually maybe someone will move onto truly engaging content and will be able to do away with those kinda carrots. Whoever gets to that stage is going to have much less trouble balancing their mechanics.

tbh as an RPG I think Daoc fails misarable, but as an PvP game I think it's really nice.

Great RPG games was Baldursgate I % II and Planescape Torment, these aint MMO's but still If wanting great RPG's these are the best imo.

I don't think that Casual and hardcore players will ever be able to have it Equal because longtime playing is whats rewarded in an MMO ofc as that is what brings the most money.

If everyone got everything people would probably be gone from the game much sooner from lack of rewards, and ofcourse the Creators don't want this.

think it's hard to make any game so interessting that you will keep on playing it for years without the proper rewards for doing so.

<ankh> · Post by **<ankh>** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:44 pm

Elrandhir wrote: Great RPG games was Baldursgate I % II and Planescape Torment, these aint MMO's but still If wanting great RPG's these are the best imo.

The old bards tale, wizardy, Might and magic, Ultima > crappy baldurs gate games ]/Ankh[/B]