The importance of being earnest... er honest

[Jupi]

Do u guys tell ur gf's/bf's/partners everything? And vice versa do u tell ur friends everything that ur gf/bf/partner has told u in private? Same goes for work things? Do u know everything ur governmment is doing?

Morals, trust, confidentialtly is what society is built on

[Takitothemacs]

First of all, two wrongs doesnt make one right. Even if some has a feeling GOA isnt holding part of its 'bargain', it does not give you the right to break your promise just because you see fit to do so. So yes, I blame those individuals.

Blame away, until you go back to the internals and look objectively at the content of some of the threads and the "issues there" you may not understand the reasons. Dont ask you to accept them, which you clearly dont, just to attempt to understand them.

From my 'internal' experience, without saying too much, I didnt see a clear indication either of them did something constructively to improve the situation rather then mindless bashing, ranting and just stirring up the discussion. Not exactly the best way to improve the problem and working on a way to improve it.

Thanks Puppet, so glad the radar reports, suggestions of communications improvements, speed abuse, LOS issues, bug abuse, bugs, offencive names and other things I provided on the internals can only be seen by you as non constructive mindless bashing, ranting and just stirring. Wake up you moron!

Silly again, just because you think Im not in the position to judge, this again is based on nothing but very limited information and pulled out of context. Same could be said towards you 'You are not an insider and missing alot of facts, you're not in a position to judge'.

No you are not in the position to judge... so why not stick to your position and refrain from judging... its hardly as if you are unbiassed in this.

We're splitting hairs here, in the end, breaking one side of the pact by giving out information which was not 'for your ears' isnt gonna resolve anything, except giving the 'outsiders' some new fuel, and giving the 'insiders' a now valid reason to think twice about saying what to the E&E's. Im sure thats all very constructive to really solve the issue. NOT

Splitting hairs or not, the release of this information has given rise to a meaningful conversation, one probably worth having been instigated by GOA themselves.

Im not in the position to take wild guesses on why they think their action(s) are justified. I got my ideas about it, and Im rather sure them being in the same guild also helped the cascade-effect.

a: you are not in the position once again.
b: my justification is mine alone and not for you to pass judgement on.
c: your speculation about both myself and Keriwins guild membership having something to do with what happened is just that speculation. If you and I agreed and fought vehmently for something together would people look at it that it was that way because we played the same class... or that we were both E&E (when I was)... would they be justified in looking at it that way? I think not so leave NFD out of this... I have NEVER stated in any of my threads that the issues or opinions that I express are anything other than my own.

In the end I find the discussion very futile, because the majority of you guys is missing some vital information, which is still, from my PoV, as being given to me as confidential.

Aye the majority are... because GOA are hiding behind their public lies as usual... whilst giving the truth to the select few and deeming it secret.

Keep guessing and stirring the kettle, because to be fair, that's what I think this thread is all about. Basing opinions on very inconclusive and wrong information, which now, to some of you, are 'given facts'.

Who was guessing Puppet?... these threads and discussions have been born from information gained by former E&E members there has been nothing seen by you (up to the point that we resigned) that wasnt also seen by us. If you are either too blind or too stupid to see it then thats hardly grounds to rubbish our views and opinions on the facts at our fingertips.

[Mojo]

Do u guys tell ur gf's/bf's/partners everything? And vice versa do u tell ur friends everything that ur gf/bf/partner has told u in private? Same goes for work things? Do u know everything ur governmment is doing?

Morals, trust, confidentialtly is what society is built on

Agree, I think Puppet's post was spot on.

[Puppet]

Thanks Puppet, so glad the radar reports, suggestions of communications improvements, speed abuse, LOS issues, bug abuse, bugs, offencive names and other things I provided on the internals can only be seen by you as non constructive mindless bashing, ranting and just stirring. Wake up you moron!

I was not talking about the other things you brought in on the forums, I was talking about the things you (and Avernal) brought in the subject which was leaked and how both of you where on a GOA-bashing regarding various subjects on these boards.

No you are not in the position to judge... so why not stick to your position and refrain from judging... its hardly as if you are unbiassed in this.

I'm not in the position to judge? Well tough luck, I think Im entitled on my opinion as anyone on these forums. And I think personally that the entire leaking from the internal boards was unprofessional and uncalled for. Ironically, the thing which was GOA accused off, unprofessionality (basically) is something I accuse people off who go leak stuff which was told them in private...

[Puppet]

[quote="Gahn"]If u have some kind of trust relathionship with another subject, mainly is a 2 way relationship]


In the end, if both Taki and Avernal felt like they could no longer be an E&E then simply resign. There's no need for either bashing (because the poisonspike issue was simply bashing, nothing else) or leaking information. A simple resignation would been enough, why make up a mascarade, throw yourselves up as 'martyr' ? Well my guess is basically attention-seeking and ofcourse the 15 mins of fame as I said before.

And to Crom, the guild NFD has little to do with it, what I ment was, I think, Avernal had more intimite contact with Takhi which resulted in the Avernal also leaving. Perhaps Im wrong, but I think it had a major impact on the final decision of Avernal regarding his departure. That's what I ment with same guild, it was not a rant towards NFD or any of the members of NFD. I would have said the same thing if they both where member of FS, Eclipse, Severance etc.

[Takitothemacs]

I was not talking about the other things you brought in on the forums, I was talking about the things you (and Avernal) brought in the subject which was leaked and how both of you where on a GOA-bashing regarding various subjects on these boards.



I'm not in the position to judge? Well tough luck, I think Im entitled on my opinion as anyone on these forums. And I think personally that the entire leaking from the internal boards was unprofessional and uncalled for. Ironically, the thing which was GOA accused off, unprofessionality (basically) is something I accuse people off who go leak stuff which was told them in private...

Again... you are sorely mistaken.

My first quotes from a GOA rep were posted with his permission.

My second quote was given to me by Xalin via MSN after I resigned from the E&E program thus negating any duty to GOA (not that there was any as my original agreement (the same as yours) was with Kemor and became null and void once Kemor was gone.)

So tell me again where I was unprofessional behaviour... go on please... explain it to me in detail... as I think it is you that is missing the point.

[Takitothemacs]

In the end, if both Taki and Avernal felt like they could no longer be an E&E then simply resign. There's no need for either bashing (because the poisonspike issue was simply bashing, nothing else) or leaking information. A simple resignation would been enough, why make up a mascarade, throw yourselves up as 'martyr' ? Well my guess is basically attention-seeking and ofcourse the 15 mins of fame as I said before.

And to Crom, the guild NFD has little to do with it, what I ment was, I think, Avernal had more intimite contact with Takhi which resulted in the Avernal also leaving. Perhaps Im wrong, but I think it had a major impact on the final decision of Avernal regarding his departure. That's what I ment with same guild, it was not a rant towards NFD or any of the members of NFD. I would have said the same thing if they both where member of FS, Eclipse, Severance etc.

Poisonspike is working as intended on Mythic servers... GOA changed it so GOA got it wrong... and still refuse to admit it... GOA continue their persistant efforts to deny their mistakes... time and again.

[Puppet]

My second quote was given to me by Xalin via MSN after I resigned from the E&E program thus negating any duty to GOA (not that there was any as my original agreement (the same as yours) was with Kemor and became null and void once Kemor was gone.)

Just because Kemor left doesnt make your agreement void and null. Or atleast not in my book. And the leaking from the boards where this topic started with, was from Avernal and not you. Which is what I called unprofessional.

[Sharkith]

Awarkle - thanks for the SWG examples. Its a good model of a game that has lots of bigger problems. There are others WoW had worse servers than this game when I was online there.

Both you and Puppet have an extremely selective style in discussing and I wish you would both just slow down a minute. After all you are E&E volunteers and have a certain responsibility to like be the eyes and ears for GOA?

First from what I see you both chose to ignore the post I gave you from CCP who run Eve. They have a 100% better record of informing and debating with their community. I gave you it as a good example of what we would like but you decided to ignore that model no comment was made and it would have been nice if our E&E representatives would have acknwoeldged that they even saw it and that they might bring that style of communication to their (GOA's) attention. But all you do is act for GOA and not the community. From what I can see - now I can be corrected on that of course and please feel free to do so.

Go back a few pages and read it and then please come here and tell me is there not a clear example of how GOA could proceed? You are Eyes and Ears you have a responsibility to us as much as them. Show them CCP and how they work in their communications - if GOA (and Mythic?) adopted a similar style I promise I for one would be much happier with them.

Above Puppet you ignored that I use a different model of the relationship. You can go on about wrongs and rights. In fact this has been a constructive thread, except for the more heated exchanges you have instigated with your particular style of posting. Takits and others need to not allow you to bait them because this has been productive despite all of the nay sayers we have had a good discussion and it has actually been constructive. I find it remarkable that it is some of the GOA 'reps' that are causing the most flames.

Lets go back again - if they had resigned and censored themselves as you would recommend - we would not have had the opportunity to put to you that GOA's communications are shit. We would not have had a chance to explain to you that they have bad relationships with the community and it is basically a communication problem. We would not have had the chance to ask you both as E&E representatives to please act on our behalf and tell them.

I get the suspicion that both you and awarkle getting away with crying about individuals breaching ethical duty is kind of a way to absolve yourselves of some responsibility to try and pass on the more constructive side of the discussion on. Of course I don't know if you have but please let me know if these discussions are ever passed back to GOA by the E&E people?

Regards

Sharkith

[Takitothemacs]

Hear Hear.

And fear not Shark I wont be baited by him/them... and tbh your objective take on this has me feeling well and truly humbled. Your clear concise reasoning much better than mine in this situation. And hadnt thought about it quite the way you put it... they do appear to be acting for GOA and not for the community.