Buffing - a thought / fix / change for the better

[Xest]

Great, so the Druid for example can either be a pure healer or have a big pet or a mix, they no longer have that choice of options

A cleric then can smite or heal... fun

A healer can well.. the mids would be most hurt as they have TWO classes for their spec buffs, shaman and healers would be affected.

Have you never heard of buff sheers? Everyone that has them should be using them every chance they get. Not to mention each healer has a form of CC so they can be making use of that too amongst other things. You'd still spec the buffing lines purely for the sheers, the resist buffs - how do you think friars feel when the only real thing they get out of their enhance line is resist buffs? they don't even get spec buffs for the group or buffstrips, only a few self buffs and resist buffs yet many groups will still accept a friar purely for the resists. Of course not to mention there's FAR more in the regrowth/perfector lines and RAs you should be doing also such as PR, DI, BoF, Cure NS, Curing disease/dots, Curing res sick, using artis like BoZ etc.

[Puppet]

Bad idea to nerf primary healers. They aint OP and definitly dont need a nerf. Removing buffs from me is a major nerf.

Bad idea, in other words

[Lothandar]

In PVE, those buffs I can put out are quite often enough, and I bring those enhancements AND bloody good healing to the group so I can stay within it.

44 nurt 31 regrowth spec buffbots heal fine in pve, not to sound annoying or anything.

And no buff enh 25% yellow dex/qui doesn't make you unable to complete, it allows people to have spread on their bots.

Which is quite scary, red str/con (toa bonuses again), red acuity (mm), super heals, fop. Bots are so perfect for healing in pve that it's not funny. Luckily we still prefer real druids though, just a reminder that, for example, ml raids CAN be run with only buffbots if no druids sign up.

[Cernos]

Bad idea to nerf primary healers. They aint OP and definitly dont need a nerf. Removing buffs from me is a major nerf.

Bad idea, in other words

But if you're the primary healer, surely it's better to not have to waste 30x or even 40x spec levels in Nurture when you could instead boost your healing or crowd control abilities with those points?

No-one is suggesting an actively played buff spec'd healer is overpowered. The problem is that when used as a buffbot, that character causes other character(s) to become overpowered.

Obviously if they re-distributed or even removed buffs they'd need to compensate the classes they were removed from with additional abilities. Taking away buffs without giving anything in return would of course be wrong.

But it's not impossible to redesign the current system, to make buffbots obsolete (by redistributing or removing buffs) and giving everyone affected some interesting and useful new abilities in return. The hard part is convincing all the hardcore buffbot junkies that something needs to change.

[Xest]

Bad idea to nerf primary healers. They aint OP and definitly dont need a nerf. Removing buffs from me is a major nerf.

Bad idea, in other words

Some would disagree Primary healers and other support tend to gain more rps than any other class in game because they often last to the end of the fight and always get groups putting them well ahead of a lot of other classes for rp gain. If you know how to play a primary healer or other decent support class to a level where good groups will group you can get to high RR faster and easier than any other class in game.

Sure they don't get a billion deathspams like bainshees and stuff but they're overpowered in a different way - you only have to compare a group with a primary healer to one without to see the massive difference it makes to a fight, hence why at least 2 primary healers is essentialy to every single solid group because without them a group would lose guaranteed. If a single class defines entirely whether a group will win or lose fights and is hence essential to the group I'd say it is pretty overpowered. The same goes for classes like, say a bard for example, you only have to look at the difference in strength between a group with a bard and one without, the difference is massive. Even when not looking at group level - a bard + a caster like say an eld or a chanter can take out multiple enemies of greater numbers than them, whereas say, a hero + a caster couldn't so easily (assuming the targets weren't total gimps of course ).

All that said, it's very arguable that primary healers being overpowered is certainly justified because if they weren't they'd never get groups and they can't really solo at all either so I think that's Mythics justification in allowing primary healers and other support to be so powerful and fight-turning is to ensure they get played and always get groups. The other obvious reason why it's okay for primary healers/support to be so strong is that every realm has them so on an equally strong group vs. group level the strength of them is nullified somewhat because they both have the strong advantage they provide, the only unbalance comes from a group with the support vs. one without the support.

[Xest]

But if you're the primary healer, surely it's better to not have to waste 30x or even 40x spec levels in Nurture when you could instead boost your healing or crowd control abilities with those points?

No-one is suggesting an actively played buff spec'd healer is overpowered. The problem is that when used as a buffbot, that character causes other character(s) to become overpowered.

Obviously if they re-distributed or even removed buffs they'd need to compensate the classes they were removed from with additional abilities. Taking away buffs without giving anything in return would of course be wrong.

But it's not impossible to redesign the current system, to make buffbots obsolete (by redistributing or removing buffs) and giving everyone affected some interesting and useful new abilities in return. The hard part is convincing all the hardcore buffbot junkies that something needs to change.

I think the point is though, somewhat defending primary healers (so I like playing devils advocate ) the most harmless solution to all classes is to make sure everyone can get the buffs like has been said via potions etc. - doing this doesn't hurt game balance as 90% of the population is running round buffed already, it's only the 10% who aren't that need to be able to perform at the level of the 90% who are.

One other thing that maybe worth mentioning is, have you tried PvEing unbuffed lately? Some of the newer mobs that came in from ToA and onwards are stupidly hard for an unbuffed player to kill - it's as if a buffbot is essential to even do a lot of PvE now if you're soloing.

[Cernos]

the most harmless solution to all classes is to make sure everyone can get the buffs like has been said via potions etc.

Probably the simplest way to handle it, yep. Then the buff junkies can keep their bots and those that need buffs and won't be grouped with a buffer can use potions. A fuller overhaul of the whole sytem would be better though, but Mythic won't ever do it.

One other thing that maybe worth mentioning is, have you tried PvEing unbuffed lately? Some of the newer mobs that came in from ToA and onwards are stupidly hard for an unbuffed player to kill - it's as if a buffbot is essential to even do a lot of PvE now if you're soloing.

I opened an account on the US servers to try out Catacombs before it was released in EU. Initially I only had one account but I found the Catacombs mobs were stupidly tough if you're unbuffed (they pull all sorts of tricks and seem generally more resiliant and resistant) and since everything is slower without a bot, I capitulated.

[Lieva]

I opened an account on the US servers to try out Catacombs before it was released in EU. Initially I only had one account but I found the Catacombs mobs were stupidly tough if you're unbuffed (they pull all sorts of tricks and seem generally more resiliant and resistant) and since everything is slower without a bot, I capitulated.

ill agree with that one

you can actually level a level 20 char with the freebie armour however - i tried catacombs with a purebreed shield tank...
got pwned every spec i tried
Maybe with the aurulite could do but the fact is you need the spec on your armour to even kill yellows means something tbh...

[Cuchuluhain]

Buffshears dont do shit when youre trying to buffstrip a buffbotted char, if theyhave redcon buffs.. and your shears are yellowcon...

guess what doesnt happen.


Now if shears took off thebuffs, to the same level as the shear ie you have 50 points of buffs and get a 30 point shear.. thatd be nice...

least it was all or nothing last I tried em

[Lairiodd]

Buffshears dont do shit when youre trying to buffstrip a buffbotted char, if theyhave redcon buffs.. and your shears are yellowcon...

guess what doesnt happen.


Now if shears took off thebuffs, to the same level as the shear ie you have 50 points of buffs and get a 30 point shear.. thatd be nice...

least it was all or nothing last I tried em

Really? That seems kinda stupid. I though the benefit of the high spec was the AE component.

I guess they want shears to actually stip buffs rather than just be a debuff that works only buffed players (so that gank groups with buffbots lose buffs by attrition). Maybe have it so that if you have matched spec then you shear 100% of the time, otherwise its (your spec)/(buff's level) as a probability of shearing. Another option is to make it so that it reduces the level of the buff. You cast shear on a red buff and it is downgraded to a yellow buff. You could then cast again to shear the buff completely.

On the potion suggestion, you would then be making it so that concentration buffs are worse from a played char. A player who uses his own potions would not lose buffs if the buffer died. Maybe add in a rule that buffs don't drop if you are within 3000 of the buffer when he dies.

OTOH, I guess a primary spec buffer would have all the +buffs TOA bonuses, while someone who is using potions wouldn't. Maybe make it so that the potions are weaker, but if you have +buffs you can get them to cap, kinda like not using the highest level spec buffs can cap (or almost) now.