Raid leaders claiming loot discussion -- split from Rowennas Ml rush

[Bugzy]

Guys, its her raids, she preclaims what SHE wants. You don't have a say in the matter because the raids aren't madatory for you so stop the frickin moaning !

[Lieva]

k the discussion was geting abit heated regarding the claiming of drops so all posts on the subject and everything else has been deleted

[Lairiodd]

Ok, I have undeleted the thread and split it into two threads. The mods here have been getting alot of flack the last week about not locking threads fast enough. It is difficult to always maintain a balance. Ideally, we are aiming to have consistancy in modding and are discussing a few rules of thumb for how to maintain that consistancy between various mods.

This thead may have been shut down a little to early, so assuming that it stays flame free (no directly insulting other people), then there should be no need to lock it. You are all welcome to state your opinions on the matter but there is no need to resort to flames.

[Cryn]

My perspective is of someone who has led a few raids, though mostly large artifact hunts and only a few ML raids.

I would say that leading is enough of a chore (in terms of stress, planning and extra typing) that some reward is not out of line. If the leader makes it clear up front that an item will be pre-claimed, I have no real problem with it.

That said, I would probably never actually do it myself. I led a programme of about 50 very large artifact hunts last year and didn't claim anything - not even stuff that all attendees of the raid were allowed to claim within the rules I set. Many of the regular raid helpers (Belisar, Rainbow, Anthon, Erce, Tig and others) also gave their time without claiming items as often as they could within those rules. I suppose what I'm saying is that although I think it's quite fair for a leader to pre-claim something, if it can be avoided you end up with a better vibe to things.

In this case Rowenna seems to have pre-claimed something out of genuine need, rather than just wanting to be paid for leading. From what she says, it doesn't sound like it would happen very often.

[Kesxex]

We have two opposing interests here:
A) The raid leader who likes to see some return on investment for the time spent leading
B) Raid runners who like to have a shoot at top drops they otherwise would have nearly no chance to get

Both groups act in their own ("greedy" i name it) interest. Both groups have a valid point. And let's face it: Some items are so rare that it is really difficult to get them while making a very big effort to organise a raid to get them.

Most players won't join a raid solely to have a very small chance to get a special item. This makes obtaining these items near impossible for most people. On the other side it is exactly these people who "dream" of these items to be in their templates.

As long as the rules are laid out before the raid starts I have no problems with it. If they are excessive I won't join, full stop. This is my way of expressing my point of view.

Another option instead of pre-claiming is to have the raid leader a one-time special plus modifier for the roll. This increases the chance for the raid leader while still maintaining the chance for everyone else. +100 to +250 is acceptable in my opinion.

[nibs]

Is it me or is the pre-claiming abit ZzzzzZzzz ?

I personally think pre-claiming is pretty lame thing since all the leader does, is tell their zerg what to do (which tbph, anyone can do if they goggle a guide).

Why should that person take away the 'good' items when if it wasn't for all the people attending it would never have been done.

And you can argue that without the leader it would never have happened; but theres been many occasions someone leading a raid has buggered off, and someone else has stepped up and carried it on.


//edit: besides, almost every raid leader gets something they *need* or *want* out of a raid.

Be it mlxp, ml steps, arti credit, arti encounters, and a chance to roll for a drops (which is generally increased by stating that only classes that can use it may roll)

[Cryn]

I personally think pre-claiming is pretty lame thing since all the leader does, is tell their zerg what to do (which tbph, anyone can do if they goggle a guide).

This is slightly inaccurate.

Things the raid leader does include:

• Making sure the groups are set up (ensuring key groups exist, determining base speed level, sorting out orphans)
• Determining strategy (despite your google comment, a lot of encounters have several approaches, some of which won't work for particular raid compositions)
• Planning and advertising (selecting a good night, adjusting it if key people can't attend, managing sign up)
• Directing key tasks (eg. setting up who will tank, who will heal, where shrooms will go, etc)
• Directing raid (telling people when to move, where to regroup, when to attack)
• Managing loot split (sorting who holds it, deciding the rules, arbitrating the rolls)
• Fielding input from raid attendees in both /bc and /send (people who beg favours, people who think you should use a different strategy, people who need an unusual afk)

There may be other tasks I've overlooked.

Typically, many of those tasks will give rise to some of the following:

• Additional typing (quite a lot of it)
• Additional stress (depends on situation, but often a fair amount)
• Additional time investment (before, during and after the raid)

All of which means that leading a raid is a pain in the rear in ways that attending it isn't. Which is why only a small percentage of people ever do it, and of those only some are good at it.

As I said earlier, I'm not exactly pushing for people to pre-claim stuff. However, it is important to recognise the effort made by raid leaders whether they pre-claim or not. If you trivialise what they do, we might lose their valuable contribution.

[Jobbegea]

i don't mind pre-claiming, :bunny: . reason i am going on ml's is going mlsteps and on 2nd place hoping for a nice item on the lotto.

[Aerendur]

Im against pre-claiming. Its the people that make a raid work, and leading can be done by just reading a site like VoS, or even just having it open during a raid. (yes I agree some do it better then others, and yes there might be occasions where good leading means win or loose, but in general its not very hard with bigger raids)

People that lead a ML1 > ML10 can IMO claim one or two items if they say so up front of the raids. That way anyone can choose to join or not.

One basic rule Id like to see everyone abide is that you clearly pre-claim in your post(s) on prydnet if you decide your work put in is enough to merit doing so. And if nothing is stated, then EVERYTHING gets lotto'd.

Just my point of view.

[Jarahl]

This is slightly inaccurate.

Things the raid leader does include:

• Making sure the groups are set up (ensuring key groups exist, determining base speed level, sorting out orphans)
• Determining strategy (despite your google comment, a lot of encounters have several approaches, some of which won't work for particular raid compositions)
• Planning and advertising (selecting a good night, adjusting it if key people can't attend, managing sign up)
• Directing key tasks (eg. setting up who will tank, who will heal, where shrooms will go, etc)
• Directing raid (telling people when to move, where to regroup, when to attack)
• Managing loot split (sorting who holds it, deciding the rules, arbitrating the rolls)
• Fielding input from raid attendees in both /bc and /send (people who beg favours, people who think you should use a different strategy, people who need an unusual afk)

There may be other tasks I've overlooked.

Typically, many of those tasks will give rise to some of the following:

• Additional typing (quite a lot of it)
• Additional stress (depends on situation, but often a fair amount)
• Additional time investment (before, during and after the raid)

All of which means that leading a raid is a pain in the rear in ways that attending it isn't. Which is why only a small percentage of people ever do it, and of those only some are good at it.

As I said earlier, I'm not exactly pushing for people to pre-claim stuff. However, it is important to recognise the effort made by raid leaders whether they pre-claim or not. If you trivialise what they do, we might lose their valuable contribution.

All those points are only if the Raid didnt get as many sign ups as needed, so you actually need skill to make the raid work. Lets face it, most have done ML1-10 on at least 1 char now, many even more, so more or less everyone know what to do now, so its not like you need much more than /faceloc xxxxx yyyyy, say /bu Zerg and moving to next target.

Leading raids is piss easy when more than 50 people comes, if you ask me!

Many people comes on raids for a shot of a rare drop.

I still find pre-claiming is teh suck, and will never ever pre-claim myself.