Warning -

[Kallima]

<slaps Ankh with fish> Wheres my cake???

<stealths and giggles>

[Sharkith]

These kinda threads are perfect example how we can furthermore break up the community spirit of this fine server/mmorpg.

People use the term community to justify all sorts of things. Two of the most common meanings the word has is either to a) indicate some kind of ghetto that needs fixing because the land is worth a lot of money to developers b) to indicate something that actually does not really exist.

That is not to say it doesn't exist in this case but what I am saying is that you can use the term to justify an awful lot of things that can also not be in anyone's interests.

So to counter a community that protects itself from unruly behaviour by negatively sanctioning it is a community that has a strong alive and well spirit. That does not mean if might feel collectively good about itself but at least it will be intact.

Its totally immature to even hope that anything even remotely like this, would ever really help anything or anyone : When you point a blame on someone for certain reaons, its can still be right and just (even then it most likely doesn't help at all), but brining it up to the crowd that 1. wasn't there 2. dont have a clue 3. wants to burn all the witches, you actually only cause havoc and arguement.

If you are certain that someone has stolen something and you have all the proof that is necessary are you blaming them or simply warning your 'community'? Which is more important acting to protect what is important in this case the 'community spirit'? So you should not tell anyone. Or actually protecting 'the community' (as Bugsy sees it) from future wrongs? You have to be able to warn someone otherwise the unscrupulous will always abuse people you care about. So I am not sure who is right to be honest!!

When anyone leading, or taking part in a big social even such as raid, ther is ALWAYS the change that a evil lurker ends up there aswell, and there is no way to avoid this to happen. But its in the responsibility of the leader of the social event to use all possible means that these individuals cannot get into position where there even IS a reason to blame them. You can use many different ways to obtain hold carry and share loot (the most common topic), its totally up to you to make sure things go the way they should go and everyone is aware of the plans. Most of the times if someone fools around and ruins a raid, there is a logical explanation for it (mostly bad leading), that makes it impossible to blame the individual. If you are not up to dealing with these always present risks DO NOT LEAD ANY RAIDS. And if you do, you still have absolutely no right to blame other people for your own mistakes.

I totally agree I would not find this a very nice responsibility.

And if the RARE ocassion comes, that some intentionally starts to ruin the fun of the others, action is required. There is a way of reporting stealers to GOA and they pretty easily give suspensions (I know I've reported a dozen). Action is also required on the root level, where it actually hapens, _THIS ACTION MUST BE MATURE_, else you become just as bad. Let his GM's know, no GM likes a bad member => bad name for the guild. If he ruined intentionally a raid, just /bg remove target and type small announcement that the asshat was thrown out, do you REALLY think your raid is unique and the very only one? Hunred of similar is coming anyway, and you can always try again later, but by getting pissed pointing fingers and overacting the blame you only lower yourself.

Yes these are all good courses of action and I am sure that they will be taken. Remember no-one here has named anyone. Bugzy saw something and has flagged it up that he will not tolerate it. By any of your definitions above he has actually not done anything wrong. He is raising awareness that he would not allow these people on his raids. Is he not allowed to do that?

Also, very importantly : Brining this kind of events out from the situation to the public forums you gain absolutely nothing constructive. When 900 people read the post and answer without knowing what REALLY hapenned, its clear it causes arguement and divides people to camps against each other. Is that what you're really looking for? The crowd is ALWAYS unjust and unfair, they dont even have to know the guy to stone him to death, and you as (supposedly) mature raid leader, should know to avoid overshooting. Also brining individual for crowd to stone, totally removes the chance that this individual could apoplogy (and that it would be heard) and with black list he could never again attempt to fix his behavior, GREAT result isn't it?

Over-reaction but you are "The Mistress of Hibernia" after all.

Now when I think of it a bit further. Who are you anyway? By the record you got 1 public raid on your belt, and 1 coming. And you're already blaming people even tho (Alexandrinus) nothing has even yet hapenned? Such Albionism / Freddys Housingishm. If you want to have even slightest credibility among the wellknown raidleader names of prydwen / hibernia then omg please even list your own toons!!

I actually find this kind of elitist. Sorry Lenah but I did not think you thought like this.

I say anyone who takes the 1st stone and starts to bring black list type of threads up to prydwen net, should be /bg removed and casted back to what ever hole they crawled out from. They're the real trouble makers. We cannot stop all kind of people doing toons on pry/hib, we cannot choose the people joining our raid. We can do our best to avoid situations where its possible to fuck up, but still its impossible to totally avoid mistakes. Still we can work them out with mature ways. I know I can, and if I can everyone can if they just put the same effort to it.

There are three points here. I actually think that threads that warn people are a healthy sign that bad behaviour can be sanctioned by the community. In this respect the community is both a frightening dictator but also alive and well. That is of course my opinion and I certainly don't think it would always be right to post a blacklist kind of thread. Just because a lot of ill feeling goes about because of one does not mean that something good is happening that you cannot directly see (i.e. policing where one has no legal recourse).

However I have to confess that as I re-read the semantics of your post I get a bit worried. It can be read like this and I am not sure you meant it to be like this.

"As a leader in this community with a lot of respect I feel I have to say something to prevent a very damaging thread emerging. So I will post. You post your views and make some very good suggestions from your experience. You do this to try to stop something bad happening. However, then you single out someone who is new and ask them who they are and what right they have to behave in a way that threatens that which you love. Hence the "My love to Hibernia" at the end.

So to return to the start of this post you use the term community as you know it to justify attacking someone who by your own definition has actually not done anything wrong. Bugsy has not actually named anyone and I respect the fact that he did not. However why be so vitrollic Lenah?

Or have I mis-read you? Apologies if I have.



Sharkith

[Satyn]

No one ever will mate, they never do...



Thandruil
After all you and your guild has cone trough, you should know better not to start a wich hunt. You know what I speak of.

Ankh
Trust no one, except me. You cant trust the crowd, u can trust the leadership tho.

EUHM! Like thand i'm intrested in what you are talking about, feel free to inform us. If you read over your first post, you're talking about not pointing fingers. What are you doing now then?

[Mojo]

Here we have it coming again!
Have a moment and look back into the history, and tell me if you can find even 1 good thing coming out by pointing fingers. Found any?

I look back thru history and it has to be said over the last 3 years, the pointy finger threads are some of the best, I really like them TBH

Ignore Lenah, she stole all cookies hacked my fridge and cannot be trusted with frsh air. If you don't beleive me I can fake some screenies to prove it.

[Elrandhir]

Just wonder how some people can be so stupid, not only talking about taking Artis or whatever "Ofcourse noone should do this, and should be banned from raids imo", but how can a person really think he will get away with doing something like this on a large raid, don´t want to put any stupid ideas into heads of peeps, but say your doing it in a group then atleast maby it would be possble to solve it without so much fuss, even though the person still would deserve what he gets, but in a big raid "have to be pretty dum imo", or just so young that he shouldent even be playing the game atall ;P

[Mojo]

You know no one has ever actually asked me what happend or why .... strange that tbh.

What happend ?

[Elrandhir]

I look back thru history and it has to be said over the last 3 years, the pointy finger threads are some of the best, I really like them TBH

Ignore Lenah, she stole all cookies hacked my fridge and cannot be trusted with frsh air. If you don't beleive me I can fake some screenies to prove it.

Nice 1 ]hm, so I shouldent even write in this post[/B]", ohwell Im bored and Im not pointing to much at anyone.

[Xcerus]

I fully intended to focus pull the mob with my enchanter i had a mana menta and a fop druid in my bg all ready to do it i said i am pulling ruini please move away - some eedjit hit him and he spiked killing everyone... which was amusing i guess but not what i had intended to happen. I would also like to point out i was kicked from the bg the first time not for attempting to destroy the pull but because i didnt want my then level 48 enchanter to lose any more xp <he was about 1.2 tnl> and the raid leader had an issue with this because i wouldnt leave the room that runi was in. The method that was used yesterday i belive was the same method i had intended to do. . . Oh and to clarify thing i am Xcerus <druid> Zcerus <chanter> Scerus <ranger> Mcerus <warden> and some others that i cant remember atm. Child is a good friend of mine irl and stuck by me during some very hard times <surrounding EoY> And yes the second EoY was lotto'd and given away i forget the name of the person now but i am sure i can find it - a bard i belive, any way I support Child for what its worth.

[Ankh Morpork]

I fully intended to focus pull the mob with my enchanter i had a mana menta and a fop druid in my bg all ready to do it i said i am pulling ruini please move away

I wonder what BG that was, cos it sure as hell wasnt the same BG as the other 41 people on Ramis raid was on.

Edit: just noticed you said your BG....but that does explain alot (cos it sure wasnt in main chat) but that doesnt justify the fact that you pulled while a the room was full of people and got everyone killed (+ the fact that you ignored rami and the rest of us when we tried to pull)


/Ankh

[Ankh Morpork]

<slaps Ankh with fish> Wheres my cake???

Ahh..the good ol fish slap! just what I deserved!!! (but tbh Kallima has the cake!)

/Ankh