Satyn wrote:Ok i understand what you are saying and i have respect for your beliefs. But dont you think it all sounds a bit like a fairytale. I mean for eg. mister A. He's a born again christian, one day he decides to rape his daughter and then kill her and his wife. You are actually saying that god will forgive something like that and will allow him to go to heaven? I thought that heaven was a place for the good people. Doesnt it become a bit pointless to have a heaven if you allow rapists and murderers etc to it?
Spiritual treasure you say... that one took me by surprise. Cos I truely like all the stories you tell me about christianity but to me they stay stories. It sounds all so pure and clean and perfect. While life is anything but perfect.
Am i right to say that according to christians and the bible, because i'm not a born again christian i will have no chance in heaven but go straight to hell?
And to discuss heaven and hell a bit more. And god vs satan.
Christians are so keen to promote their God as the embodiment of love, justice, understanding and mercy but why would a just, merciful deity allow the torment carry on for so many years merely on the basis of a philosophical arguement between him and his servant, Satan?
Some very hard questions to answer simply. Even the most learnèd Theologian would take a long time to answer with completeness. I'll try.
Satyn wrote:But dont you think it all sounds a bit like a fairytale.
No, not really, because to me it is reality. Yes, we've had the God vs. Evolution debate in great exhausting detail, which I feel didn't make anyone change their belief or disbelief in God. It didn't make me change my belief. I still believe in God. Likewise, some of the evolutionists like Xest, still remain unswerving in their disbelief in God. So, depending on which side of the fence you are will determine whether you see it as a fairytale, or reality. For me, because of my experience, I have a total belief in God. So I see it as a reality.
Satyn wrote:I mean for eg. mister A. He's a born again christian, one day he decides to rape his daughter and then kill her and his wife. You are actually saying that god will forgive something like that and will allow him to go to heaven?
To answer this we need to consider sin and morality. Everyone has an inbuilt sense of morality that is not necessarily religious. In many cases, morality is down to how one is brought up. Your parents, grandparents, family and friends will influence you and you will pick up on various notions of what is right and what is wrong, which then become ingrained into your psyche. Also, society in general will influence you, as well as things you watch on TV or read about in the newspaper etc. So, in time you will develop a set of morals. You will know when you've not lived up to your own standards and you will possibly feel a sense of guilt because of that. Those who follow a particular religion will also include in their sense of what is right and wrong the morals they find in their holy books. So where is this leading?
In short, when you develop a moral sense, if you're not religious then you will be judged by God as to whether you've lived up to your own standards. Of course, you may not believe in God, so you will perhaps feel bad about yourself, but think nothing more of it. However, as this topic is based on the idea of there being a God, then if you fail to live up to your own moral standards then that is enough to condemn you to hell. This also implies that those who die very young and who have not developed a moral sense will not be condemned, because they did not have the necessary intellect to comprehend the difference between right and wrong or had not learned it from others.
So, considering those who have developed a moral sense, from whatever source, you can see that both the religious and irreligious are in the same boat. It is impossible for anyone to live up to even their own low standards, let alone those of God. I'd bet real money that no-one can say that haven't done just one single thing that they knew was wrong by their own standards (then a again, some say gambling is a sin)! Going on from this, the next thing we have to realise is that the world's standards are not God's standards. Some believe that being good and bad is a bit like weighing something on scales, that somehow if you do enough good things in life, they will outweigh the bad things and therefore ensure that everything is ok and that they will go to heaven, that somehow, there is a scale of sinfulness, i.e. that stealing a DVD from a store is less sinful than killing someone etc. Trouble is, this line of thinking always leads to people coming up with the statement, "How can you be certain you're going to heaven?"
Such doubts stem from a misunderstanding of how God sees sin. In a nutshell, God makes no distinction between "little" and "big" sins. They are all judged equally by him. God therefore judges someone by the fact that he/she has not lived up to his or her own moral standards, regardless of what it was that caused that person to break that standard. We must conclude, therefore, that everyone is condemned. Everyone is totally without hope by their own standards, even those who are considered as good people.
But, this is where Jesus comes in. God fully realised that it would be impossible for man not to sin. This is why he put his plan into action to provide a means by which people could be saved from their sin. God gave us his son, Jesus. Because Jesus was God in human form (known as the
hypostatic union) he was totally without sin. He was condemned to death on the cross, even though he had done nothing wrong. As such, he was a perfect and complete sacrifice. It was the first time in the whole of history that someone died who did not deserve to. Because of this, God created a means by which everyone could be saved from hell. All that is necessary is for someone to truly repent and acknowledge Christ's sacrifice. Therefore, those who accept Christ's sacrifice are assured of a place in heaven. Those who don't are not.
If you have never heard of Jesus, or have not heard the Gospel, you are condemned by failing to live up to your own moral standards. However, once you have heard about Jesus then you are judged solely upon whether you have accepted his sacrifice for you, or not. Anyone who is reading this, is therefore in the latter category. At least now you have a choice to do something about it, whereas before, you would be condemned without knowing why.
Now, going back to "Mr. A". We can see that he his in the category of having believed in Jesus. This is what matters in this case. God will therefore judge him by that. He will still go to heaven. I totally admit, however, that such a person is evil by the world's standards and totally deserves to go to hell, but this is true for everyone, because of the fact that God views all sins with equal severity. There has always been a tendency to look upon religious people who commit evil acts with more severity than those are not religious. But the fact of the matter remains that by God's standards everyone is the same boat. It is belief in Jesus that makes the difference.
Touching on another point in relation to the above case, those who go to heaven will be transformed into the likeness of Christ. Their is no sin in heaven, because God cannot stand sin in his presence. Mr. A will be transformed. All that was evil will have been removed.
Satyn wrote:Am i right to say that according to christians and the bible, because i'm not a born again christian i will have no chance in heaven but go straight to hell?
Yes, you are totally correct. And I don't like to say that, because it sounds a horrible thing to say. However, this is where the duty of all Christians comes into play. All Christians have a duty to tell others about the reality of such matters. If we don't, then we are ourselves committing a sin, because Jesus commanded us in
Matthew 28:19-20 to do so.
Because of what I believe, I wan't everyone to know the truth about God's love for the world. If me saying that those who are not born-again will go to hell causes resentment, then so be it, at least I have fulfilled my duty before God. Maybe it will be the wake-up call to make those people want to do something about it? If what I say is the truth, then it would surely be wrong for me not to share the truth with as many people as possible? Therefore, it is my life-long endeavour to continue to tell people about Jesus whenever possible. I hope you can appreciate that.
Satyn wrote:And to discuss heaven and hell a bit more. And god vs satan.
Christians are so keen to promote their God as the embodiment of love, justice, understanding and mercy but why would a just, merciful deity allow the torment carry on for so many years merely on the basis of a philosophical arguement between him and his servant, Satan?
That's one for another day, because again, it's a "biggie".
)
while murderers who are born again get to go eat with golden spoons?! bah!
think that i would ever have to sacrifice him. I wouldnt do it for anyone, not even for myself or for anyone i know. I cant understand how/why someone can believe that because one guy died at the cross being innocent (and i'm sure he wasnt the first) can take away all the sins of everyone else.