Petition against car tracking

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Sharkith
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Post by Sharkith »

Ovi wrote: You are making an assumption that the system will increase tax revenues significantly, and that the government will be free to use as they like. Both assumptions may turn out to be correct, but until we do know more details it's very difficult to justify saying it's bad. Virtually every point against the charges in this thread ihas been based on assumptions of how it might be bad.
in many respects all you have to do is look at history. There are loads of precedents that indicate that our feelings are justified.

Airport duty has expanded how much after they started to use it?

Income tax thresholds have not moved up at all for years so the burden of tax has increased dramatically.

National insurance exploded under labour and what did they do with the additional money that came in? They handed it to the consultants and the general medical practitioners in pay rises that are beyond shameful.

I welcomed more tax to try and help people who were not well off.

I welcomed more national insurance payments.

I did not even begin to imagine that the government would hand it all to the consultants and GP's just look and you will see I am right. The NHS is bankrupt because the government caved in - John Ried handed these groups huge payoffs.

So there is more than enough evidence to indicate that our money has been very badly mis handled.

And I never believed I would ever say that. I work in the health care sector - my consultant colleagues are embarrassed by the money they were given and I am not joking. Ovi this is not an assumption it is a fact you cannot have this debate in a historical bubble. Just look and you will see that any more tax will be wasted. The government is now sailing very close to the wind and it knows it.
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Gandelf
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Post by Gandelf »

I think it is fair to say also that a considerable amount of tax-payers' money ends up being given to "spongers". I think it is reasonable to say that some people are out of work not because they can't find it, but rather because they would rather stay at home and claim benefit on the grounds that they are not able to work because of some alleged incapacitation. How much money would be saved if "spongers" were forced to have to work for a living like the rest of us? Not forgetting those who claim benefit as well as go to work. We see on the TV commercials about benefit fraud all the time, so it must be a problem, surely?

Regarding air travel... it was on the BBC News only last week, that it's becoming more of a trend for commuters to buy houses across the channel on the Continent and commute to England every working day by catching a plane. They do this because it is quicker than having to live in the UK and commute to work by car/train/bus. Whilst I have no problem with this on the grounds of personal freedom, it is worrying because air travel is more damaging to the atmosphere (or so a documentary I saw said), because exhaust fumes from the planes are being dumped higher up into the atmosphere than land based exhaust fumes.

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Sharkith
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Post by Sharkith »

Gandelf sometimes you should just leave things. Seriously for every 'sponger' there will be 20 people who genuinely need that money. You should focus on the real problem.

The last major investment in the NHS went to the people who needed it the least. Do you even know how much consultants and GP's now earn?

Have you half a clue just how unjust the pay off was?

You do realise that doctors and consultants earn so much now that a lot of them have gone part time or have been forced to go part time because the NHS cannot afford to pay them? In other words we had a shortage of doctors and concultants. Now they earn so much we cannot afford to pay them.

I think you need to worry less about spongers and more about those who should have known better. It is a scandal and it hasn't hit the papers yet which is amazing.
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Ovi
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Post by Ovi »

Sharkith wrote:In fact I disagree with you here. Signing it indicates just how carefully the government will have to proceed. After all if the petition wasn't there would this thread exist? I think petitions like this are very important for our democracy, I also think polls are very useful.
If you want the government to think about it carefully, then create a petition worded that way. This petition said the government shoud not do it... full stop. Not that they should think about it carefully.

You sound like you agree it is something that should be looked at, and yet you are prepared to sign a petition to say that they shouldn't even look at it?

How are the government meant to know what people really think, when people are saying tihngs they really don't mean?

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Lieva
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Post by Lieva »

Sharkith wrote:You do realise that doctors and consultants earn so much now that a lot of them have gone part time or have been forced to go part time because the NHS cannot afford to pay them? In other words we had a shortage of doctors and concultants. Now they earn so much we cannot afford to pay them.
they earn that much??

*considers getting a doctorate degree*

ahh dont think i have the patience for that..

(geddit - patients! lol: oh im funny :D)
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Lieva
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Post by Lieva »

Ovi wrote:If you want the government to think about it carefully, then create a petition worded that way. This petition said the government shoud not do it... full stop. Not that they should think about it carefully.
thats prolly why the goverment will dig their heels in over it also.

when you demand something people tend to refuse to do it on the basis their being ordered too :)
even if its a reasonable request.

"get your foot out the lava!"
"i think ill keep it here a while.."

extreme but it could happen!! :p
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Gandelf
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Post by Gandelf »

Sharkith wrote:Gandelf sometimes you should just leave things. Seriously for every 'sponger' there will be 20 people who genuinely need that money. You should focus on the real problem.

The last major investment in the NHS went to the people who needed it the least. Do you even know how much consultants and GP's now earn?

Have you half a clue just how unjust the pay off was?

You do realise that doctors and consultants earn so much now that a lot of them have gone part time or have been forced to go part time because the NHS cannot afford to pay them? In other words we had a shortage of doctors and concultants. Now they earn so much we cannot afford to pay them.

I think you need to worry less about spongers and more about those who should have known better. It is a scandal and it hasn't hit the papers yet which is amazing.

I fully agree with what you say Sharkith. I do not dispute it at all. But as you say, if there is 1 "sponger" in every 20 genuine cases, then that's 1 too many. Multiply that 1 person by however many more thousands of spongers there are and it's bound to be a considerable sum of money.

The real problem is not how the money is being wasted, but that it is being wasted and going to the wrong people. Would you agree with me that however the money is being wasted, it's part of one big problem and that every step should be made to ensure that it doesn't happen in the future?

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Gandelf
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Post by Gandelf »

Ovi wrote:If you want the government to think about it carefully, then create a petition worded that way. This petition said the government shoud not do it... full stop. Not that they should think about it carefully.

You sound like you agree it is something that should be looked at, and yet you are prepared to sign a petition to say that they shouldn't even look at it?

How are the government meant to know what people really think, when people are saying tihngs they really don't mean?

Whatever the intention of the petition was is irrelevant. The important thing is that it is a wake-up call for a meddling Government who are consistently introducing new tax measures to bleed every last penny out of those who can ill-afford it. It's no bad thing for the electorate to fire the occasional warning shot over the bough of the Government to remind them who put them in power.

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Post by Xest »

I think the Sharkith vs. Gandelf fight is definitely going in favour of Sharkith atm.
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Sharkith
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Post by Sharkith »

Gandelf wrote:Would you agree with me that however the money is being wasted, it's part of one big problem and that every step should be made to ensure that it doesn't happen in the future?
Lets look at figures: taken from here
Hewlitt wrote: &#8220]

Read it and weep.

How much did they give fire officers?

Now tell me how much each 'sponger' costs us?

Seriously Gandy point the figure in the right direction if you decide to point it at all.
social security fraud act wrote:1. The Government estimates that fraud in social security benefits costs the taxpayer at least £2 billion every year. In March 1999, the Government set out its strategy for reducing fraud and error in the social security system in the Green Paper entitled "A new contract for welfare - Safeguarding Social Security"(Cm 4276).
Here

£2 billion benefit fraud estimate per year

Doctors pay increase costing approximately £4.9 Billion per year inside 10 years

Now ask yourself who is taking who for a ride. I am only going on the figures that I can find and the estimates might be out but it looks to me like a very small number of people took a very large sum 3 years ago....
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