Animists

General 'Hibernian' forum for the entire cluster
User avatar
Belisar
Emerald Rider
Posts: 1249
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:26 am
Location: Somewhere Out There

Post by Belisar »

Xest wrote:The fact all you can find to cry about in Alb is Minstrels, Sorcs and monster res says everything imo :p
And pretty much all you have done (repeatedly) is run out the same line that Ani's are OP is seiges...

No one has disputed that, in fact actually reading the posts suggests people would be happy to see some form of balance as the ani's who posted here prefer the roaming fg vs fg action and not the mindless seiges or zerging we see a lot of.

Genedril's post also makes sense if you actually read it... other classes do have abilities which in some situations give them a big advantage. Other classes do have players who have a limited or low skill factor and therefore only do well in the zerg/seige situation.

But then you always did love an argument ;)
Brain cells come and brain cells go but fat cells live forever !

Currently playing Hib (ofc) on Uthgard

Xest
Emerald Rider
Posts: 3166
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:00 pm

Post by Xest »

Belisar wrote:And pretty much all you have done (repeatedly) is run out the same line that Ani's are OP is seiges...
Well in a thread about Animists what would you expect? or do you mean you'd rather I just lie and try and pretend they're overpowered all the time just for the sake of it?
Belisar wrote:other classes do have abilities which in some situations give them a big advantage. Other classes do have players who have a limited or low skill factor and therefore only do well in the zerg/seige situation.
The point is no classes in game are as overpowered as Animists/Bainshees in seige, add onto this that Hib has plenty of access to PBAE as well as baseline stun and Hib is infinitely more powerful in seige than any other realm which equates to easier access to relics and easier defence of relics. Where Hib falls down is in terms of population (which I gather is an issue on Pryd/Excal cluster?) however on other servers where Hib population is much more equal they out and out dominate relics and seige with no other realm standing a chance - for reference current US server relics for Hibs are:

Caerleon:
Hib: 5, Alb: 1

Devon:
Hib: 5, Alb: 1

Kilibury:
2 all

Tintagel:
Hib: 4, Mid 2

Particularly on Kilibury cluster where active RvR populations fluctuate rapidly you can see it in effect, during holidays Alb seems to have roughly 2x the numbers of other realms and dominates pretty well, soon as holiday periods end and Alb has roughly equal to or a little more than Hib, Hib will absolutely dominate, Mid has good periods now and then where it pulls players from somewhere and manages to get roughly the same population as Albs and dominates both realms.

This means that Hibs absolute domination of seige situations with equal or slightly less numbers than their opponent due to Bainshees/Animists leads to an indirect advantage of 10% - 20% effectiveness via relics of ALL Hib classes which is a massive jump. Because of this it's no suprise that many people see Animists/Bainshees as a big issue because with those classes it's not just about class balance, they have the potential to directly effect realm balance as a whole which is a very bad thing. The situation was somewhat excuseable when Hib had lower populations but there are times (and servers) now where Hib active RvR population (not necessarily overall realm population) is consistently the highest, couple with the fact hib already excels at destroying greater numbers and you encounter a massive problem. Where I'm going with this is in relation to your last sentence of that paragraph, the fact is there are no other classes in game than Animist/Bainshee that effect overall realm balance to the extent those two classes do so whilst BD, Sorcs etc. maybe situationally overpowered at least it is confined to those situations - i.e. small scale warfare rather than destroying the game as a whole by making it unbalanced in it's entirety with a cross the board relic advantage due to those classes.

I totally understand if may suck if Hibs are having a bad time on Pryd due to overpopulation of Alb for example but Mythic must balance for the masses unless they can aquire the resources to start balancing for each and every server. On US Bainshees/Warlocks (and vamps to some extent) being so overpowered did wonders for population balance, within a few months Hib was able to just about match Alb in active RvR population on every US server for the most part and Mid caught up somewhat, but declined again after the warlock nerfs. I think the issue on the English servers is that with just Excal and Pryd rerolling to other servers for the latest fotm to balance out populations just never really worked due only 2 English servers. I'd wager a bet that if all euro servers were same language i.e. English or whatever that euro too would've seen a balancing out of populations a little better than has occured.
Belisar wrote:But then you always did love an argument
Actually if you read up you'll see Genedril is the one who felt the need to start making it a personal thing :p I only joined this thread when I misinterpreted Cryn's comments and saying Animists needed boosts all round which was an easy mistake when you read his post by itself at the top of the page! :p
OFFICER XEST - PROTECTING YOU AGAINST FORUM CRIME
Image
Che Xefan, el presidente.

Cryn
Emerald Rider
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:06 pm

Post by Cryn »

The problem comes from this tendancy to only talk about one class at a time or one class vs another class. If you look at how sieges unfold, I don't know if you can even say they are AS overpowered as some other abilities, let alone more overpowered.

Phases/types of a siege include to my mind:

1) Trying to get through the gate (tower/outer). Defenders are trying to kill people with oil and people who run through LoS killing ground.
  • As attackers, shroom don't do much here except make it hard for defenders to get in, and they don't even make it that much harder. Using a controlled shroom on the tower oilpot is worth doing, but now shrooms grow with ML9 conv, it's much easier for enemies to react to it, and there is an easy way to prevent it happening in the first place - shoot the the ani before he can place it, since he has to be in range and LoS to do so.
  • As defenders, shrooms (if used right) can make it hard to get near the gate, but if the attackers either use zombie rezz, GTAoE or a CCer standing off shroom farming, it completely negates their value
2) Trying to get through inner gate. Defenders are trying to use both oil pots and battlement/window attacks to keep attackers off.
  • Attacking, shrooms make it much harder for defenders to arrive, because they can set up hard-to-negate killing fields. If you can get a foothold, they can also make oilpots and roof no go areas for the defenders. I believe this is the main area of OP shrooms, though assist nukers always made it hard to get into a position for oil/roof shrooming and warlocks made it much, much harder.
  • Defending, shrooms can make the courtyard a hostile environment for attackers, but again a simple zombie rezz, GTAoE or dedicated CCer hugely reduce their value.
3) Stair/lord's room. Attackers are trying to get to lord and kill him.
  • As attacker, shrooms are hard to use here. LoS and GT issues make them easier to kill than cast. If you are lucky enough to get a foothold, they help maintaining it, but GTAoE and zombies generally clear shrooms at frequent intervals, making them a waste of power.
  • As defender this used to be one of the strongest aspects of shrooming, but now is much less so. In towers, the zombies, siege and GTAoE make it hard to actually place the shrooms, due to interrupts and stacks die very quickly once placed. Even if you manage to maintain a shroom-based defense, the attackers now just knock the tower down and overwhelm you. Inside keeps on defense, shrooms are still very strong, though clearly not as strong as pre-zombie.
If you compare this to how other abilities affect siege, I think you'll find zombies are at least as powerful - any situation where people are forced to congregate in close quarters, a few zombies can have the effect of killing people, interrupting or making people run into the open where people on battles ments can kill them.

Warlocks are also very strong in the siege phases where people stand on walls. Anytime someone moves into the open, they are shot down at a speed that used to be the province of multiple assists, and multiple assists are rarely able to produce a coordinated reaction as quickly as a single warlock.

Even GTAoE, which is nothing new, is arguably more powerful than shrooms. With the low HPs shrooms now have they get killed quickly by GTAoE, and if you try to place them somewhere not being targeted, they are usually in a place where people can shoot them from the walls. Conversely, you can GTAoE large groups of people very easily, preventing them healing and keeping them interrupted.

That's not to say Anis are not very powerful in siege situations. They are certainly right up there at the top alongside other strong siege classes. But realistically, there are other classes with high impact on siege. If Hibernia dominates siege situations on some clusters it no doubt owes something to animists, but other factors (like Bainshees) play a large role. Also, there is the consideration that the strong siege abilities on other realms are in some cases on classes not played much. Animists are good for PvE, so a lot of people have them.
Peat Bog, Animist <Iron Wolves>
Cryn Twyn, Bard <Iron Wolves>
Tape Gob, Eldritch <Iron Wolves>

Inventor of the Lagapult™
House 3303, Cior Barr. Come Visit.

Now playing ... WAR on Karak Eight Peaks
Irony, Runepriest <NFD>
Sable, Witch Hunter <NFD>

Cryn
Emerald Rider
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:06 pm

Post by Cryn »

Xest wrote:Well in a thread about Animists what would you expect? or do you mean you'd rather I just lie and try and pretend they're overpowered all the time just for the sake of it?
Yes, but the thread WAS specifically about animists in roaming RvR. Beli does have a bit of a point in that you have changed the discussion to be about sieges, and that your reason for doing so seems likely to be because it is an area where you can complain about animists. Even though you realised your mistake about my comment on boosts some posts ago, you still post focusing on siege.

This is a problem animists run into a lot. We talk about balance, but others insist on only talking about siege. If everyone adopted the idea that we could improve roaming capabilities at the expense of siege capabilities you might find your complaints get addressed at the same time mine do, making everyone happy (except shroom-spammers of course, but that's tough luck).
Peat Bog, Animist <Iron Wolves>
Cryn Twyn, Bard <Iron Wolves>
Tape Gob, Eldritch <Iron Wolves>

Inventor of the Lagapult™
House 3303, Cior Barr. Come Visit.

Now playing ... WAR on Karak Eight Peaks
Irony, Runepriest <NFD>
Sable, Witch Hunter <NFD>

User avatar
Luz
Emerald Rider
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:26 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by Luz »

Just to add in that Anis while considered OP'd, its in very situational(sp?) places.. and them places together with situations alone.

Keeps/Towers for one, you must find a place out of sight in order to get shrooms down, its slow casting.. pop out and place 1 shroom is useless, so you need several seconds. Take away that one situation and we are left with lifetaps.

With luck the bombers work, but they can often get lost or stuck at the door.
So then we are down to 1 spell, a lowlv baseline nuke, hardly OP'd imo :o
Bah. Lv50s.
Animist, Bard, Druid, Enchanter, Nightshade, Vampiir

Cryn
Emerald Rider
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:06 pm

Post by Cryn »

Luz wrote:Animists feel a bit op in sieges now since the bombers climb up/down walls and even manage to get thru doors (sometimes) now it seems, allowing me to stack a silly amount of bombs.
Is this something new, Luz, or something I am misunderstanding? Do you mean if I am standing outside a tower and someone is on the wall, my bomber will climb the wall or go IN to the tower through the gate? I've never seen it do that O.o

I reckon I musta misunderstood you.
Peat Bog, Animist <Iron Wolves>
Cryn Twyn, Bard <Iron Wolves>
Tape Gob, Eldritch <Iron Wolves>

Inventor of the Lagapult™
House 3303, Cior Barr. Come Visit.

Now playing ... WAR on Karak Eight Peaks
Irony, Runepriest <NFD>
Sable, Witch Hunter <NFD>

Xest
Emerald Rider
Posts: 3166
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:00 pm

Post by Xest »

Monster res is overrated mostly because a lot of people don't know how to negate it. Ignoring the obvious, just mezz the monster and he's fucked or stun him and kill with the zerg it's extremely buggy such that it simply rarely procs on it's own, afaik it's meant to be 4sec pulse but in reality you're lucky if it procs more than once or twice through it's entire duration, where it does go into overkill though is if people start meleeing the monster, melee triggers procs so if the zerg starts meleeing it they'll get whiped by it, left alone it's nigh on 100% worthless though, the best thing you can do is hope you get a lucky proc amongst some pets and get them to start hitting you vs. people who know what they're doing with monsters.

The other obvious issue with MR is that it takes a lot of power, requires a heretic which are currently the one of the least played classes in game if not the least and most importantly it requires someone to die. What's more the monster depends on the players stats also, so a monsters res'd mage is honestly still rediculously easy to kill but something like a paladin, armsman, minstrel or some such are much better, if the cleric can get some buffs in after the res it helps too.

All in all though when you understand the weaknesses of MR you can largely completely negate it, if you're not lucky enough to have a group who wont break mezz just do that, if you're with a zerg just stun it and kill it, if you're with an incompetent zerg at very least try not to let them hit it or keep away from the monster when being hit - do those things and it's not a threat.

Cryn, I know shrooms HPs have been lowered but they're still not that low, on my theurg with MoM4, Acuity 3, 9% ToA damage, 10% peirce and 3 relics, +101 acuity template I only _just_ one shot a shroom (the odd one makes it through a nuke - essentially shroom hps seem to be 750 - 800hps), try that in a small space on 15 shrooms whilst they're interrupting you and killing them as a single target nuker is not easy. Things are a little better now with the wizard boosts but Albion simply does not have enough AE, they have Wizards (somewhat rare but becoming more popular), heretics (extremely rare), matter cabbys (non-existent). Albion has little choice to kill them 1 by 1 and you rarely get the luxury to spend the time trying to deal with them 1 by 1 when you have enemy trying to kill you too. Remember that Hibernia has AE on Elds, AE on Ments, AE on Animists, AE on Bainshees, AE on Enchanters so AE is something people just take for granted in Hib, in Alb it's something that's really, really hard to get hold of.

Your last paragraph pretty much hit the mark though, it's not shrooms by themselves, it's shrooms coupled with bainshees, when a bainshee can stand right back and still smother a doorway in high damage AE whilst PBAErs stand round the corner decimating at close range and shrooms kill anyone off who runs up and tried to move back out of AE you literally just have a wall of invulnerability vs. any numbers, fact is 2fg Hibs well setup with 4 or so PBAE, 4 or so bainshees and a few animists + support can defeat a zerg of absolutely any size in a lord room/tower. It isn't the individual classes by themselves it's the combination of bainshees and animists for sure - PBAE on it's own you can run right through at least.
OFFICER XEST - PROTECTING YOU AGAINST FORUM CRIME
Image
Che Xefan, el presidente.

User avatar
Luz
Emerald Rider
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:26 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by Luz »

There was two situations.

1. I was defending Bolg, was in mainkeep up on walls. They were clammed up at the bottom hugging the walls. I casted bombers and somehow they hit them after a while. So from up and inside the keep to outside seemed to work.

2. I was attacking a lv1 tower with 3 mids in, I used bombers by misstake first, but then they hit him! I wasnt sure so tried again and yup, he died.


Seems they go thru the doors now? If someone can confirm its nice, else I have to wait to next siege to try again. 2 more situations I have not tried this time around, from inside tower to outside and from outside keep to people up inside the walls.
Bah. Lv50s.
Animist, Bard, Druid, Enchanter, Nightshade, Vampiir

Cryn
Emerald Rider
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:06 pm

Post by Cryn »

Xest wrote:Cryn, I know shrooms HPs have been lowered but they're still not that low, on my theurg with MoM4, Acuity 3, 9% ToA damage, 10% peirce and 3 relics, +101 acuity template I only _just_ one shot a shroom (the odd one makes it through a nuke - essentially shroom hps seem to be 750 - 800hps), try that in a small space on 15 shrooms whilst they're interrupting you and killing them as a single target nuker is not easy. Things are a little better now with the wizard boosts but Albion simply does not have enough AE, they have Wizards (somewhat rare but becoming more popular), heretics (extremely rare), matter cabbys (non-existent). Albion has little choice to kill them 1 by 1 and you rarely get the luxury to spend the time trying to deal with them 1 by 1 when you have enemy trying to kill you too. Remember that Hibernia has AE on Elds, AE on Ments, AE on Animists, AE on Bainshees, AE on Enchanters so AE is something people just take for granted in Hib, in Alb it's something that's really, really hard to get hold of.
Shrooms have 500HP, and as far as I know/can tell they don't get any HP bonuses or resists (since they benefit neither from those of the ani or those of the group) unless I drop a vent.
Your last paragraph pretty much hit the mark though, it's not shrooms by themselves, it's shrooms coupled with bainshees, when a bainshee can stand right back and still smother a doorway in high damage AE whilst PBAErs stand round the corner decimating at close range and shrooms kill anyone off who runs up and tried to move back out of AE you literally just have a wall of invulnerability vs. any numbers, fact is 2fg Hibs well setup with 4 or so PBAE, 4 or so bainshees and a few animists + support can defeat a zerg of absolutely any size in a lord room/tower. It isn't the individual classes by themselves it's the combination of bainshees and animists for sure - PBAE on it's own you can run right through at least.
I'd say stun prevalence is also a major factor. Many times, the ability to kill people in siege depends on either being able to get enough damage on the person quickly, or being able to keep the person in sight long enough to do damage at a normal rate.

I find with my ani I can't kill much in siege with my LT (can't use bombers at all mostly). I'd think it is the same for enemy mages not having a stun or massive DPS. Whereas Hib magician classes only need to land the stun then get more time to nuke someone down, though possibly still not long enough. Then again, window-dragging wizzies probably balance that (you know who you are!) with their insta-killing from miles away.
Peat Bog, Animist <Iron Wolves>
Cryn Twyn, Bard <Iron Wolves>
Tape Gob, Eldritch <Iron Wolves>

Inventor of the Lagapult™
House 3303, Cior Barr. Come Visit.

Now playing ... WAR on Karak Eight Peaks
Irony, Runepriest <NFD>
Sable, Witch Hunter <NFD>

Xest
Emerald Rider
Posts: 3166
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:00 pm

Post by Xest »

Cryn wrote:Shrooms have 500HP, and as far as I know/can tell they don't get any HP bonuses or resists (since they benefit neither from those of the ani or those of the group) unless I drop a vent.
I don't know where you got that figure but I cannot under any circumstance kill a shroom with a nuke less than at very least 700 (Well except a lower level shroom ofc :p).
Cryn wrote:Yes, but the thread WAS specifically about animists in roaming RvR. Beli does have a bit of a point in that you have changed the discussion to be about sieges, and that your reason for doing so seems likely to be because it is an area where you can complain about animists. Even though you realised your mistake about my comment on boosts some posts ago, you still post focusing on siege.
It's no more "to complain about animists" than your comments were to whine that animists are underpowered. It takes two to have a discussion about something, in fact in this thread it seems to be 3 + me discussing animists in seige...
Cryn wrote:This is a problem animists run into a lot. We talk about balance, but others insist on only talking about siege. If everyone adopted the idea that we could improve roaming capabilities at the expense of siege capabilities you might find your complaints get addressed at the same time mine do, making everyone happy (except shroom-spammers of course, but that's tough luck).
But isn't that just it? The attitude in this thread? Animists bitch at people if they dare to bring up how overpowered they are in seige so it works both ways, whilst you may accept that they should be toned down in seige to be boosted in the field you can't realistically discuss improvements without discussing the required nerfs to go alongside them. You can't realistically expect to get boosted when you're pretty high up the overall balance chain - you have to take the nerf, if you were lower down the chain overall then you'd be perfectly right in making sure you received boosts first. As I've mentioned already changes to animists have a very real effect on the entire games balance not just simple class to class balance so it's not just a case of just boost us and see how it goes before nerfing, it either needs doing at once or the nerfs need to come first. Hence, you need to discuss the nerfs with the boosts or just the nerfs before discussing boosts else it gives the impression to everyone else that you expect boosts an an animist. It's good that you realise nerfs and boosts are needed but you need to display that in discussion and not try and mute comments about where nerfs are needed.
OFFICER XEST - PROTECTING YOU AGAINST FORUM CRIME
Image
Che Xefan, el presidente.

Post Reply

Return to “Hibernian Cluster Discussion”