Quinlan wrote:for ML raids i think most people attend to get the ML and not the items.
Personally I couldnt care less if a raid leader claims something. He/she puts alot of effort in it and why not reward that alitte. I know i am rewarded since i get the ML
Word on that..I cba to arrange ML raids, yet I need them so go on them and dont care about the items at all.
If someone can put up with "oh noes where did you go I died" from someone afk, every 2nd minute, or "DONT GO AHEAD OF ME!" 10 times from leader followed by someone pulling the main mob faaaaar ahead, and still lead the raids I think they deserve an item, if its worth 10g or 50p is for me not important.
A counter question is if people really "deserve" to roll when afk 90% of the time? Meaning they get a 50p item for /sticking someone and doing other things? Thats more of an issue to me then a leader claiming an item. I swear our ml8 raid had 75% afk big times of it...yet people happily roll on all items.
In my experience the need before greed is a system which not works well. Why ? As many mentoined before, you never know if he needs it or not really. Second, if leader says ok you cant roll b/c u dont need , or he let roll only his friends, etc. I saw many bullshit from nbg system, it works only when all of attendants are close friends or something, anyway i do prefer the random lotto, simlpy because its based on random roll and not from someone's goodwill or anything.
Random rolls still has its flaws like many people rolls on his main plus his BB, but oh well.
The best loot distribution system which works in long term is the DKP system well, but it useable only when the same people shows up on the raids, the ad hoc ML raids not from this type.
Back to the topic, if he claimed it, so be it, you like it or not, but he said in rules before, so i cant see any reason to complain.
There are two parts on a raid, the raid itself and the lootsplit.
Often the split is more stressful then the raid.
Ive tried many many differant ways of splitting loot but the important thing is that it is writen what you are doing before the raid.
in one old raid i gave a +5 on rolls from lurilasses, unfair on all non lurilasses but it was explained before the raid so by going on raid you would be agreeing to it.
Problem is when it isnt stated clearly beforehand, then you get arguements.
The need before greed policy can work, but not in /bg's now, it worked when everyone respected the others and worked together.
Finolin wrote:Any of the "need before greed" people care to explain how the following are different:
1) Player A needs item X which s/he rolls for on a raid.
2) Player B needs item Y which can be bought for 50p, so rolls for item X which can be sold for 50p, allowing him/her to buy item Y.
Both players have a "need" which can be met either directly or indirectly by winning item X.
The difference is scarcity. Item X is scarce, whereas plats are common.
Player A needs item X so he attends raids where item X can drop in the hope of winning a roll for the item.
Player B isn't trying to get an item Y to drop, he is expecting someone else to get item Y for him, and in the mean time attending any raids to gain the plats required to buy it.
Need before greed assumes that Player A by directly helping himself trying to attain Item X is the more worthy of getting the item.
I think Radu was right in saying it only works well in certain situations. I believe that the reason it worked better pre-toa wasn't just that people weren't so "desperate" for the items, but also that generally speaking the people on raids did attend a lot of raids together. Whereas since ToA people get together for quick one-off raids, never intending to group again.
All in all I think the fairest way now is for everyone to roll, however I do think it is easier for all concerned if there is one roll and the highest roll gets to choose the item they want, then the second highest. I prefered this way when I ran raids, and when I have just been an attendee
Hmm..
just read through all of this topic and i agree that this subject will go on for many years and tears yet.
but as for my view on claiming/lotto
As all that attend any of my raids will know, i have never claimed an item. The simple reason for this is that i consider being respected a much better gain than an item. Yes, a few weeks ago i stated that i was claiming Rs 3/3 from ml7 group steps, and it dropped, but then so many people got miffed and argumentative in group because 'they needed it for their shade' that i let them roll for the scroll, without even rolling myself.
with lottoing I very rarely even roll myself because of the stress involved in taking a item that othes want.
it annoys me that so many can be so selfish and wanting even when the raid leader has spent hours on notes, preperation, leading, and then the stress of lotto at the end.
Raid leaders deserve more respect in this game, and yes, if they want to claim an item for whatever reason they want then it is their call, their raid, their rules, if you dont like it then go and 'Attempt' to lead one yourself.
and from now on imo only people who have attempted raid leading should be allegible for flaming a claim-and-sell case.
This is the way i see it, but i still say i wil not claim items because of the stress given by the selfish players in this game.
"How do you pick up the threads of an old life, how do you go on, when in your heart you know, There is no going back. There are some things that time cannot mend, some hurts that go too deep..."
Frodo Baggins, LOTR "All my life i have lived by a code. Honour the Gods, Love your Woman, and Defend your Country!"
Prince Hector, Troy
It's easy, i need finish my template, i need some items that i cannot farm by myslef, but i can buy them because other people is able to farm it.
So i need money, farm scrolls/artis is bored, i enjoy making ML's, and some hib ppl need them so i do a ML RUSH, for all of u and i only want 1 item from each raid, in ml6 i claim MT 3/3 and now i active madd on my char.
In ML7 i claim the cloack ( yes the uber famous cloack), not in template, but i can SELL it and win money for finish template.
U know that this can happend when i post the raids ect...
So i don't understean why u are whining about a thing u know that can happend and u come to raid anyway, it's silly, but u can continue this treath, and i'll continue reading it.
I've always wondered why people dont use the old Legend of Mir System... granted it wouldnt really work on huge BG raids, but for artifact raids, things with only 1-2 fgs or something it could be quite effective
it went like this:
X ammount of people on the raid (We used to take 6-8 people on ZT raids, dont worry if you have no idea what that is)
Do the normal stuff, kill monsters, drops etc collected by raid leader.
at the end of the raid, items are all there, and you go through each item, and put it up, and then people decide what they want to pay for it. for example, if we got a Judgement Mace, people would bid on it, usually went for 30mill ish.
now obviously, a few "set" prices would need to be made, but this would just have the effect of stabalising daocs economy. for example, it needs the entire realm to agree that malice axe is worth 5p. (not saying it is, example).
anyway, the person who wanted the item, or if more than one person wanted it, the person who bid the highest, BUYS the item off of the group. so he gets the axe or whatever, and the 5plat goes to the group leader. the group leader then splits up the 5plat, and hands a cut to everyone except the guy who got the item. so if there were 6 people in the group, everyone would get 1plat, and the guy would get his malice axe.
Now i know people are thinking "but i prefer to go on hunts, and trying to get lucky to win items rather than fork out 6p".
but youre forgetting, if you go on other raids, and dont claim any items, then youre getting cash from all of them, and they help pay for the items you need. basically it encourages people to go along and help people on raids where they otherwise might not bother because theres nothing in it for them, and noone goes away empty handed.
I think itd need some work to adapt it, but the principle is sound, ive always hated the luck based system daoc servers seem to have picked up.
probably a few of you think you can see a flaw, but point them out and im pretty sure i can explain them away, its a great way of doing things
would only work with small numbers.
Imagine the ML9 raid with over 100 items and several dozen people.
Ekk the amount of work that would take is horrible, gives me nightmares just thinking about it. <grin>
Nice idea but i generally find that after a raid everyone is tired and wanting to rest so something that doesnt require thinking is probably easiest.
Im now of the impression that i want to keep things simple as even after a good raid if the loot split gets messy then it spoils the event for me.
When people join the raid they all pay the raid leader 500gp if they win somthing they want to claim they loose their deposit else they get the 500gp back
then once all the drops are dished out the deposits are handed back and what ever was made from the whole raid Aka the 500gps not handed back is split up among everyone else.
likewise if you start to act up or cause somthing to go wrong because your not reading what the leader says you loose your deposit
Albion : Arod (tic) Ponies (cleric)
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