So, is it ok to say absolutely anything if you use a :)

[Belisar]

It's the victims fault for putting themselves in a position to become a victim certainly. Kinda like jumping in front of a car then complaining you got hit.

I got burgled - must be my fault for owning a house.
I got mugged - must be my fault for going out.

Well there's nothing stopping anyway seeing what events are happening, you're not under some obligation to read all other threads when looking for event information - thread topics give away if it's an event thread or otherwise.

My fault here as I directed this point away from Kal's which was in her case a personally directed comment as I understand it not a generalisation. However the idea of this forum is to exchange information, thoughts and ideas not trade personal insults.

there's also plenty of people who can deal with the flaming.

Dealing with it is not the same as liking it or supporting it. I am sure you agree.

Are you really naive enough to beleive that as a result of this thread the forum will never have any flames again?

Nope but if it makes one person stop and think then it has had a result. Every good cause in history had small and slow beginnings.

I suggest that if you expect a forum relating to an online PvP focussed game to be a forum like that then you're misguided.

Why ? This is a game and we all play for fun. We get our kicks in different ways but the game is not about flames or abuse. No rps, exp, arti's or anything else comes as a reward.

Pretty silly of you to suggest my comment saying people shouldn't complain about people flaming on the internet instantly means I don't think people should complain about anything ever, couldn't be further from the truth .... What I did say however is there's no point complaining about this specific issue because ...that's never going to change anyway.

Sorry if I misunderstood or misrepresented you.

My point is that we could relate the reponse "why bother it will not change anything" to any situation real or e-based. Will it change anything or anyone ? Neither you or I know that for sure, we do not know and never will know if it has made one person stop and think. Glass half empty or half full I suppose.

Mind you I'd rather it be completely full <wanders off to find more alcohol to re-fill it>

Btw sorry to everyine else if it seems I am turning this into a me versus Xest thread, it is kind of interesting and we haven't even started flaming or abusing each other yet

[Kallima]

I dont think it was kallima's intention to complain. She raised a point to discuss. And i'm on her side for 100%.

I was actually trying to get people's opinions on what is a kind of ethical point. If someone says something offensive in game or on the internet, does adding a smilie automatically remove any possible offense.

There are several possible replies to that.

You can say that nothing on the internet is offensive, you shouldn't take any of it seriously.

You can say that things can be offensive, but a smilie should always imply that they are not meant seriously and they become inoffensive when one is used.

You can say that a smilie removes the offense except in extreme comments.

You can say that a smilie is just used as an excuse, and anything offensive said by a stranger remains offensive.

I was trying to get people to imagine a situation and work out their personal position on this. Perhaps I should just have tried a poll, but I dunno how to do them, and you can never have a sensible ethical debate by just using a poll. I suspect it would drift off into personalities whatever you did.

Another interesting debate that occurs to me is that at the moment people go online and can hide who they are in real life. Unless of course they get into something illegal and the police chase them back into the real world. Now presumably it would be possible for things to change, perhaps because of cracking down on crime, paedophiles, or terrorism, and everyone to be labelled online with exactly who they are in real life. Would that change behaviour? Would it be good or bad?

[Kallima]

it is kind of interesting

Actually dispassionate debate on ethical points can be very interesting. Its great hearing the other viewpoints, properly debating your differences with someone, and accepting that in the end you hold different opinions but it was a really interesting conversation.

My idea of proper debate here is actually discussing things rather than saying 'u suck'.

[Satyn]

Another interesting debate that occurs to me is that at the moment people go online and can hide who they are in real life. Unless of course they get into something illegal and the police chase them back into the real world. Now presumably it would be possible for things to change, perhaps because of cracking down on crime, paedophiles, or terrorism, and everyone to be labelled online with exactly who they are in real life. Would that change behaviour? Would it be good or bad?

I've got a double feeling about this. A person can have a dark history (for example a bankrobber), goes to jail, gets out of jail and decides to start fresh and make something good of his life... i'm sure that guy wouldnt want to be known as Jack the bankrobber. But i sure as hell would want to know if i was dealing with a person like that.
If i think about my son he's 10months now, in about 6y (prolly less) he's gona start discovering the internet. Its an amazing 'world', its fun, but i'm scared with all the lunatics out there. So (even if its not possible) label them

[Kallima]

[quote="Satyn"]I've got a double feeling about this. A person can have a dark history (for example a bankrobber), goes to jail, gets out of jail and decides to start fresh and make something good of his life... i'm sure that guy wouldnt want to be known as Jack the bankrobber. But i sure as hell would want to know if i was dealing with a person like that.
If i think about my son he's 10months now, in about 6y (prolly less) he's gona start discovering the internet. Its an amazing 'world', its fun, but i'm scared with all the lunatics out there. So (even if its not possible) label them ]

Nice point. Someone might have a dark reason for preferring anonymity. On the other hand it could be something innocuous like enjoying being treated as an adult, and not wanting people to find out they are only 15.

<grins> If you could click on a character and it said 25 year old male computer programmer from Nice, or 14 year old schoolboy from Glasgow, would it affect who you invited to group?

[Satyn]

mmmm difficult one... Can i have both?

Some 14y olds behave more mature than some 25y olds so it wouldnt matter to me.

[Xest]

I got burgled - must be my fault for owning a house.
I got mugged - must be my fault for going out.

No, you're struggling to understand. It's like leaving your house then getting burgled, or in your second example which is much more fitting here - it's like going to a dark alley where known muggers hang out then complaining you got mugged.

My fault here as I directed this point away from Kal's which was in her case a personally directed comment as I understand it not a generalisation. However the idea of this forum is to exchange information, thoughts and ideas not trade personal insults.

No but again, personal insults come with the territory, it's something that wont change no matter how much you complain, on the contrary the fact that Kal's showing how upset she is about it just means she's making herself more of a victim.

Dealing with it is not the same as liking it or supporting it. I am sure you agree.

Well, from the way you put you made it sound like there's a hell of a lot of flaming going on, if so then there's clearly a hell of a lot of people who do support it.

Nope but if it makes one person stop and think then it has had a result. Every good cause in history had small and slow beginnings.

I'd hardly call it a beginning, as has been seen with this forum and many other ageing communities past - for everyone that stops flaming or leaves the forums, 2 more will appear for sure.

Why ? This is a game and we all play for fun. We get our kicks in different ways but the game is not about flames or abuse. No rps, exp, arti's or anything else comes as a reward.

Wouldn't think you'd even need to ask why, I'd have guessed you would understand that wherever there's competition, people will penis wave and try and show off. Also, you find a lot of depressed and/or stressed people online so insulting people and putting them down is a release for them to make themselves feel better. Again, something that's been demonstrated for years and years in online communities.

My point is that we could relate the reponse "why bother it will not change anything" to any situation real or e-based. Will it change anything or anyone ? Neither you or I know that for sure, we do not know and never will know if it has made one person stop and think. Glass half empty or half full I suppose.

Call it experience perhaps, but again as mentioned earlier - ageing online communities are a lost cause, they only tend to recover when the community is almost totally dead and only a few hardcore community members remain to get all nostalgic about old times, sometimes then a few will return but it depends on the community really.

It's kind of sad really because a lot of the things you say probably should be true in an ideal world, but as the cliche goes this isn't an ideal world and thats what's wrong.

[Xest]

I was actually trying to get people's opinions on what is a kind of ethical point. If someone says something offensive in game or on the internet, does adding a smilie automatically remove any possible offense.

There are several possible replies to that.

I don't think there is a definitive answer, you can only really look at it on a case by case basis, if a friend tells you to "f*** off " it's generally completely different from someone you've never heard of before saying it without the smilie. You also have to guage it in terms of what it was in response to also - basically, you have to look at the context. There's also grey areas, like for someone who you don't know personally yet you also know is a bit of a joker making a comment - it maybe difficult to know what way to take it sometimes and only they truthfully know how they intended it. So to answer, I'd say in some situations yes it is okay to say anything with a smilie, in others, no it's not.

Now presumably it would be possible for things to change, perhaps because of cracking down on crime, paedophiles, or terrorism, and everyone to be labelled online with exactly who they are in real life. Would that change behaviour? Would it be good or bad?

Worst thing ever, essentially you're playing with the lives of oppressed people who depend on the internet as their only source of free speech just for the sake of people who can't take a few insults online. People being allowed to post anonymously and without fear of reprucussions is one of the most impressive and useful things the internet offers, whilst it hads its downsides I'd argue they're far less important than the upsides.

[Kallima]

I don't think there is a definitive answer, you can only really look at it on a case by case basis, if a friend tells you to "f*** off " it's generally completely different from someone you've never heard of before saying it without the smilie. You also have to guage it in terms of what it was in response to also - basically, you have to look at the context. There's also grey areas, like for someone who you don't know personally yet you also know is a bit of a joker making a comment - it maybe difficult to know what way to take it sometimes and only they truthfully know how they intended it. So to answer, I'd say in some situations yes it is okay to say anything with a smilie, in others, no it's not.

I was trying to keep this question specifically to things said by strangers not friends, because you have a sort of agreed code of practise with friends, and they probably have a fair idea what you find offensive and what you don't. A stranger doesn't.

Worst thing ever, essentially you're playing with the lives of oppressed people who depend on the internet as their only source of free speech just for the sake of people who can't take a few insults online. People being allowed to post anonymously and without fear of reprucussions is one of the most impressive and useful things the internet offers, whilst it hads its downsides I'd argue they're far less important than the upsides.

Yes this is the civil liberties argument, about free speech, and free information for oppressed people. Its a good argument, especially if you know people who have lived under oppressive regimes and have risked their lives for the right to vote.

Still it is possible that the anonymity of the internet could be lost. The more uncontrolled people's behaviour on it becomes, the more powerful the arguments for tightening control. And I was not talking about insults online. I specifically mentioned things like crime, peodophiles, and terrorism. In the debate between civil liberties and policing, it takes one major atrocity to swing public opinion. We have seen this.

[Xest]

I was trying to keep this question specifically to things said by strangers not friends, because you have a sort of agreed code of practise with friends, and they probably have a fair idea what you find offensive and what you don't. A stranger doesn't.



Yes this is the civil liberties argument, about free speech, and free information for oppressed people. Its a good argument, especially if you know people who have lived under oppressive regimes and have risked their lives for the right to vote.

Still it is possible that the anonymity of the internet could be lost. The more uncontrolled people's behaviour on it becomes, the more powerful the arguments for tightening control. And I was not talking about insults online. I specifically mentioned things like crime, peodophiles, and terrorism. In the debate between civil liberties and policing, it takes one major atrocity to swing public opinion. We have seen this.

Most people are beginning to see with 9/11 that the laws imposed afterwards were ineffective despite severely breaching civil rights though, hence why the patriot act looks like it's on it's last legs.