English as a universal language

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Kallima

Post by Kallima »

Sharkith wrote:Is it best to leave it knowing it is there as a repository of past actions where our society was not sure why it was doing what it was doing? Or from time to time would it be worth using it positively in ways that we can learn to avoid replicating old mistakes?

I am all for remembering the past positively to avoid repeating mistakes. By definition, a code of shame is not positive. Its seems to me that using the word shame says someone should feel shame and guilt. The word we need is learn. The human race has throughout history done some terrible things. I am human, with all its flaws, and in those situations I might have done them too. I don't think of them as the responsibility of any one human culture, they are something we all need to learn from. That isn't ducking out of what my ancestors may or may not have done, its accepting all past actions of humanity as something worth learning from, whether my ancestors did them or fought against them.

And getting back to where this whole ethical debate started, we have over time developed a common form of numerical communication, because trade tends to be to everyone's advantage. Eventually, we may have a global communication language, that everyone learns in addition to their first language. I doubt that can be imposed, it will happen naturally, and will probably be a currently widespread language. If you believe a society is its communications, then you should be in favour of that as bringing people closer to being a global society that hopefully may in a few million years learn to stop fighting each other.

I don't see society as just communication. Sociologists may view it that way since its the easy bit to study, but its like seeing dinosaurs as only made up of bones because those are the bits we have around to look at. Society is a lot more than communication, but I hope that being able to talk and understand each other is a help. I know, thats a fluffy headed view, and maybe entirely wrong, but if it is a good thing then we don't want the past used to be an obstacle to that happening.

Whatever language might be eventually adopted I think it would be a good idea that people who use it as a first language also learn other languages. As someone who uses english as a first language, I find the fact it is so widespread is a bit of an obstacle in learning others. I've had serious go at learning three languages plus the artificial language esperanto. Its easier to get hold of written stuff than to hear people talking. Its probably much easier for a french person to watch films in english for example, than it is for me to watch them in french.

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Post by Gandelf »

I think what Cryn says is right.
We have to let bygones be bygones and new generations must move forward and leave the past behind.

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Bloody hell ...

Post by Ashgen »

'Once more unto the breach, dear friends' and 'Cry ‘God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'

If we look at history through different types of glasses then you could put a slant on many events in history. It is also folly to try to understand and articulate what happened 200 years ago with today’s values and ethics, rather like trying to compare Stanley Mathews with Stephen Gerrard.

English IS the world language, fact. We English (yes I am English and damn proud) did not design it that way, it is just that the biggest economic power in the world, the USA, happens to speak English. If the French had taken over in the States then no doubt they would be speaking French now, so all the world’s atrocities would have been their fault, and not the nasty English.

It is all too easy to dwell on the negatives and forget the positives. It is also too easy to blame big brother next door for all your own failings and shortcomings.

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
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Post by Lairiodd »

Ashgen wrote: t is just that the biggest economic power in the world, the USA, happens to speak English.
Tbh, the English deserve some credit too. Indians, for example, don't speak English due to the USA (though it is a good reason for them to continue to). It might be more accurate to say the current and former major economic power on the planet is English speaking.
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Post by Tuthmes »

English IS the world language, fact. We English (yes I am English and damn proud) did not design it that way, it is just that the biggest economic power in the world, the USA, happens to speak English.
Ohohoh! Atm the most spoken lingo is spanish, closely followed by the chinese. You're better of in this world with speaking latin then english.
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Post by Lieva »

lets face it

unfortunatly the main reasons english peeps dont speak anything other than english is (and yea im english)
a: theyre lazy so demand everyone speaks the same
b: they have the possibly the cruddest education system on the planet when it comes to other languages.

im not 100% sure but i suspect that even america has more education on languages with so many diverse cultures ..

and didnt someone say manderine was the highest spoken?
thats chinese not latin-american
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Post by Lieva »

Ashgen wrote:It is all too easy to dwell on the negatives and forget the positives. It is also too easy to blame big brother next door for all your own failings and shortcomings.
but they beat us up and stole our lunch money :(
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Post by Sharkith »

Kallima,

all good points that I would not disagree with. Just two things. I would consider shame to be one side of a two sided distinction. What is on the other side could be almost anything depending on how it was used. Therefore shame in this two sided form would most likely not always be negative. Like the historical example I gave earlier if oppressed people can use the term to get attention from their oppressors, like the peace movement in Northern Ireland by calling the actions of the violent men shameful, perhaps it is a good thing and opens up communication where there was only violence?

Like I said it would depend on looking to see how it has been used - don't assume though that it is only negative in fact there could be many historical examples of where it was part of a positive two sided form.

Second, the position that society is only communications is unusual in sociology - most sociologists are still working with the view you have of society. I prefer to avoid that view because I find it vague and unhelpful. It is plauged with philosophical problems and remains largely unclear. I like to work with clear definitions and clear sources of data.

Finally, by saying that society is composed of only communications I feel very strongly that in fact we free people up to be what they will. There are no longer the determinst debates that society determines you and you have no free will. All we have are co-evolving systems mutually stimulating each other an a very lively historical and ever more complex process of co-evolution.

Anyway its definitely true that whatever happens with languages in the world it would be better organically evolving rather than being forced on people - which is after all why I started to post about this in the first place. I see most of us agree on that now of course! :)

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Post by <ankh> »

Banana wrote:and didnt someone say manderine was the highest spoken?
thats chinese not latin-american
Mandarin/Cantonese proberbly

And I think those two are more common than spanish tbh.

/Ankh

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Post by Heta »

This has to be one of the longest and most pointless discussions I have ever seen.
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