Deleted Thread on FH - read here (concerns Synergy)

[Gahn]

Only chance they got is stick to the rules for some time, till other fgs recognize the effort and get over it, no easy way out nor shortcuts, it's a mountain they gotta climb by emselves.

[Slayn]

A community set's it's own rules.

I've yet to find anything in the CoC that says I can't join a guild for a day - strip it's vaults - quit guild & look at my takings. That's frowned upon by the community though (& rightly so). As was killing arti mobs while other people were waiting & trying to get their FG there, despite having been there before who ever strolled in with 4 toons on stick & blew the mob into oblivion. Anyone remember the fuss these things caused??

We're a community - we interact - part of this is the creation of some sort of rules/guidlines for this interaction as this is how society acts.

If we're going to get het up (rightly or wrongly) over the PvE 'guidlines' for behaviour, then the same goes for the RvR. You can't on one hand complain that someone stole something, killed your arti mob you were assembling a group for etc & on the other hand say I don't give a rats arse about your percieved RvR ruleset. You simply can't have it both ways. Either you say it's not covered in the CoC therefore I can do it, or you accept that the community has develpoed guidlines beyond the explicitly stated CoC.

This is a really nice post. Hits the nail on the head imo.

I would hate the idea that the interactions between players in game were based purely on following the CoC. The CoC is simply a very bare set of rules that forbay only the most extreme behaviour. It is lucky this is not the case, instead we have developed as a community far broader codes of what is acceptable.

This isn't something that any one person decides, it grows up around the shared interests of all. And will almost always serve to enhance the playing experience for people. I see no difference between the PvE and RvR game in this regard. The crucial point, and one that I don't understand why a reasonable person like, say, Flim can't grasp, is that these codes are based in the community, it is the community which forms them and the community which maintains them. Not GOA, not Mythic, but us.

The reason this can happen is a) the community is like-minded enough to agree on at least some codes, and b) if the community sees some party walking all over this can say 'fine, you don't respect the community, then don't be part of it'. This is what happens to the Xioeen's and the Barker's etc.

For me, what happened with the recent Synergy incident, is that the mods' actions interfered with the above process. If you understand what I said above about the way communities operate, then you can see that the process was in operation, the community was in an effort to find some mutual understanding, a certain party disrupted this, then lied about it to the community, and the community was going to say 'fine, you've shown your true colours, either change this attitude or don't seek to be considered part of our community.'

If you can see this, then you can see that the FH mods interfered with this process. They placed themselves in a higher position of authority then the community.

This sort of thing happens all the time in the PvE side of the game. And havn't often seen mods interfere. (e.g. Maeloch's post about barker/xioeen). Did a mod step in there and say 'they didn't break the CoC, I'm locking this thread because of whine'?

The only way that mod behaviour could be set to be consistent, is if the FH Mods actually believe that there is no such thing as an RvR community. If that is actually what they believe, it seems pretty pointless to be using their forums.

[Kallima]

I freely admit I haven't read all of this, I skipped a lot of confusing or aggressive posts.

It seemed to start as a protest about moderation on FH and covered a lot of ground since. I saw the original thread on FH, and the link to the movie which was funny.

I personally have a thing about someone abusing a position of power for personal reasons/gain. I was in a game where I had four accounts and was well known and trusted by a lot of people. I logged one day and never went back because of such a situation. I do not go back to things.

The FH mod did have a personal involvement. In my opinion it is a mistake to mod a situation you are involved in, or even to suggest a course of action to another moderator. They should make their own judgement independently. However the original thread is closed not deleted. I just went back to it and played the movie again. Anyone can do so and have a laugh. So the thread was closed but he did not go to the lengths of deleteing the thread or removing the link.

I'm not actually keen on a debate about the actions of a mod on one forum being carried on in another forum. Its a difficult situation I appreciate, but it feels a bit like FH and Pryd are turning into siamese twins. Maybe its right to discuss it, and this is the only place, but no fair to throw random mud at people just for wearing the mod sweater.

As for adding... There seem to be multiple threads springing up like mushrooms under various thin disguises to continue the adding debate. Some people want to talk about their position on adding, but I don't see its really getting anywhere. The community is divided on the issue of adding, or there wouldn't be so much debate about it. Some hate adding, some just want to hit things. The adrenaline seems to be getting out of hand when people talk about adding being wrong, except in revenge for previous adds. If A adds on you, then you add on A's fight with B, so B adds on your fight with C... Its a viscious circle that involves a much better ability to remember names and grudges than I possess. I can sympathise with an 8v8 fight being messed up, but there is inconsistency when full groups don't want adds on a 'fair' fight, but are happy to run over soloers or smaller groups.

I don't think there is an answer unless the game is changed so you have to accept an invitation to fight with someone/a group before you can attack them. If there is sufficient aggro about this, that might even happen. I think that would water down the beer of rvr a lot.

Its been discussed endlessly, and I think the time fighting about the game on forums sometimes exceeds the time fighting in game. Threads turn into beating a dead horse, with the same people saying the same things, but I'm not sure that closing them is the best solution. I think it would be interesting if you could put a thread limit on the number of posts by each person. Anyone should be able to say anything useful in ten posts say, and it would cut out a lot of pointless repetition if people were aware they had a limit of spam on a thread.

If individual groups want to discuss policies with each other with a view to cutting down the adding then I think that would be more likely to succeed in pms. On the forum is open for all to read and join in, and some responses are likely to be unhelpful.

[Slayn]

If individual groups want to discuss policies with each other with a view to cutting down the adding then I think that would be more likely to succeed in pms. On the forum is open for all to read and join in, and some responses are likely to be unhelpful.

You make a nice post and was good to read. I have to say though, that my personal experience runs contrary to what you say in the above quote. I have found a big improvement recently in running fg's, versus several mid/alb groups now, I can feel confident that a certain code will be observed. Particularly with groove/PE even if they accidentally engage, thinking we are on our own, when they realise we have adds, or if adds engage us half-way through fight, they will disengage and allow us to try and kill them.

Now imo, this is very much down to discussion and communication. Some on forums, some on IRC, but generally it's the *public* stuff that works well. Because if two guilds discuss this in a thread, then a 3rd 4th 5th and 6h guild will see it, realise there is some effort being made, and perhaps join in. For an example even *within* the thread that was closed, Shike posts on behalf of AD and you can clearly see through engaging in the community he commits his guild to a policy observed within the community. This is really nice imo. Yes the thread is also flamey, but that's actually from a minority. Imo the same could simply not be achieved through PM's.

I've noticed an across-the-board improvement in this lately. Realm Hunters for example have become far better. They still gank the solo'ers etc. But with regards fg fights, I've seen them not add on a lot of hib/mid or hib/alb fights now.

[Elrandhir]

Agree Kallima, will cut this short as I made such a long post earlier and most of what i wanted to say is in there.

There really are many just thinking of themselfs and what they do and what needs to have some kinds of rules from how it seems, and yet many of those wanting fair just go steamroll soloers etc, if you want fair it should be fair in every situation and not just in the things you want it to be fair in, or your an selfish hypocrat(or however that spells).

If it dosent aply in all situation I don't see why it should have to be so atall tbh.
Thats why I don't complain myself really, our gg don't add and leave 1 vs 1 fights, but we also kill many soloers etc, so what right do we have to tell anyone else what to do then I wonder(So I don't)

[Treeeebeard]

Even if FG V FG is sorted so theres no more adding from other FG's /Solo'r, Id like to see if the FG's are willing to stop steam rolling easy kills in return too, so theres more solo fights ect. Only then is there a chance more people will be happy when both keep to there own game imo =o

[Kallima]

Yes the thread is also flamey, but that's actually from a minority. Imo the same could simply not be achieved through PM's.

You may well be right, and I see the flaming minority as more destructive to the discussion than it really is. I think my comment was based on an incident in one thread, and other times it may work.

[Elrandhir]

Even if FG V FG is sorted so theres no more adding from other FG's /Solo'r, Id like to see if the FG's are willing to stop steam rolling easy kills in return too, so theres more solo fights ect. Only then is there a chance more people will be happy when both keep to there own game imo =o

This is what I mean, I understand different people want to do different things, but they Enforce rules in what they like and don't care bout others all that much, if it can't go both ways they have no right to tell anyone what to do tbh.

"I am the Angel of holyness in one area, heh well we steamerolled that soloer or whatever(well who cares)" if so, then you should just be quiet tbh..still there are those that never add or never go for soloer etc so I aint saying this is always so, but I belive this happens much though ;D

[Shike]

Shike,

That paragraph has some really sound advice for Synergy if they are ready to listen to it unfortunately the last bit is likely to make some of them see red. I hope they don't.

Now you have posted though I hope you don't mind me asking what would you like out of this whole thing now that there is a debate?

We had a laugh thanks to Slayn and it was at the expense of beeks. Now that its over and done what would you like from this though? How can we move on from this point ?

Sharkith

Well I cant really resist to poke someone in the eye sometimes

And if it does indeed make them see red, why do they do that then? Because I pinpoint what they actually did, because they feel silly for doing it, because they feel humiliated in public? Why? By finding the answer to that question, it can move on and it can be an open honest debate.

If we just look at the facts we got:

Synergy claim they do not add, others claim they do. A debate was going on regarding this on FH and it resulted in some regular pietossing as it usually does on FH

What happens next is that Slayn put forward something that just cannot be denied, it's impossible to misunderstand that situation and it makes them look exactly like the thing they were so eager to deny, namely a group that adds whenever they want to, and whereever they want to.

What we get out of this is, Synergy is a guild of hypocrits. That is 100% clear and it cannot be denied. Synergy even have a mod on FH that instead of moderating, chooses to shut things down and probably hope it will be forgotten some day, this in its turn doesnt make things better in any way. We can also see that overall this silly incident actually have hurt their reputation even more.

How does this affect the community in the longterm? Well, not at all. It's nothing new that a guild is labeled as zergers and adders. It's just another AoD from OF, thats all.

How does this affect Synergy? Well, the more they behave like this, the less fun fights they will get, since they just end up on more and more guilds KoSlist. If they find its worth it, is up to them. They can also go on and play as many other groups play on Agra, which means, without adding, since that is why groups head there in the first place. Call it Epeenfencing, call it elite, call it whatever, it doesnt matter, its just an agreement for people who likes FGrvr. I think we should be happy such an agreement exists. It gives guilds/groups a chanse to go out there and test their strenghts in fullgroupbattles.

Like Gahn said, its their own mountain to climb, if they want to, nobody forces them to, but if they want to maintain fun fights on agra without getting alot of adds constantly, they better change behaviour as fast as possible. After this, I cannot see why groups should be showing them any kind of different treating than they deal out themselves as it stands right now.

I just feel one thing though, I think its sad that its so few days agramon is active, I wish it was active every single day so full groups had a natural place to go whenever instead of trying to deal with the zergs following by iRvR or at the 3 legendary bridges. I would be happy to see more groups there from all realms overall, one less albgroup isnt good but it is not up to us hibs to decide how another guild is going to play which brings me to my endpoint, there is nothing to debate really

Synergy themselves are responsible for how they play, if they wanna go on like they do now, ok, they will get zerged more and more, until it just aint fun for them anymore. They can ofc take a defensive stance and say: Bla bla bla, who cares if more add on us, we manage, we get added on all the time anyway, etc.. but face it, hibs outnumber albs with quite a darn large percentage on agra as it is. I wouldnt wanna be in their clothes and try and run thru agramon if I they are on everybodys KoSlist. We all play for fun, AD would never add just for the sake of adding on Agra, nobody in AD would agree with it, untouched FGfights even if we loose is why we even head agra in the first place since we enjoy it, it would stupid to ruin our rep and bury ourselves.

[Aran_Thule]

What is a fair fight? how can you tell if people are around your level, by the time you see thier realm title your basically on top of them.
Given that now everyone level 36+ appears yellow con wouldnt it be possible to make it so you see them using mob colours?
Grey= level<35
Green= 3 or more realm ranks lower
Blue= 1 or 2 realm ranks lower
Yellow= Same realm rank
Orange= 1 realm rank higher
Red= 2-3 realm rank higher
Purp= 4+ realm ranks higher

As far as the arrangements people make, there is no way people can enforce them and everyone plays thier own way, but no justification for insults or abuse.
Saying that agromon was designed based on old emain as a place for groups to roam without tower/guard issues.
i found that when most high RR groups are running there i can have more fun elsewhere which is far more enjoyable then being repeatedly run over by groups you have no chance of beating.