Underpopulation Bonus

Post by **Xest** » Tue May 30, 2006 9:45 am

[quote="Sharkith"]Xest the only reason why we are level with them in rps is cause we have the skeels not the numbers. ]
I'm sure that's what Mackey, the balance guy at Mythic kept telling himself when he was trying to justify keeping his Bainshee op'd for so long, and yes, he does play one and has since Catacombs beta, no coincidence imo!

Sharkith · Post by **Sharkith** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:10 am

Xest wrote:I'm sure that's what Mackey, the balance guy at Mythic kept telling himself when he was trying to justify keeping his Bainshee op'd for so long, and yes, he does play one and has since Catacombs beta, no coincidence imo!

Ha - well maybe he was just reading the Alb zerg whine about another realm having a caster class that could come close (note the come close) to sorcs....

and yes I have no clue what I am on about I play two classes and thats it. I do wish GOA would give me a go at a Mincer though because they are just bloody stupid in terms of utility.

Cromcruaich · Post by **Cromcruaich** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:24 am

Interesting discussion, but probably a moot point. Dont think pop bonuses now have any real effect on the flow of people between realms, nor confer any significant advantage to characters within the under populated realms.

Post by **Xest** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:35 am

Cromcruaich wrote:Interesting discussion, but probably a moot point. Dont think pop bonuses now have any real effect on the flow of people between realms, nor confer any significant advantage to characters within the under populated realms.

Yeah they make no diff. to flow of population but they do effect balance I'm sure, when Mythic (wrongly) changed population bonuses on Kilibury such that Mid/Hib had underpopulation bonuses despite having higher active RvR populations and gain Alb was constantly vastly underperforming in terms of RP gain and simply in being unable to keep towers/keeps claimed to as high a level as Mid/Hib due to them getting reduced claim costs.

Sharkith wrote:I do wish GOA would give me a go at a Mincer though because they are just bloody stupid in terms of utility.

Certainly not the highest utility class though. Biggest problems for minstrels is that a) Their abilities are timered, with all their abilities down they're horrifically weak and b) Insanely low DPS, shouts suck bad nowadays with CL resist buffs on everyone and all that and 1h rogue melee is just laughable. Minstrels strengths are in their insanely high survivability for 1min every 10mins or so other than that they're pretty sucky nowadays, certainly not a touch on the old style IP, Purge, AP3, SoS pre-NF minstrels. Definetely better choices for a group and Infil is much easier to solo with, one things for sure though it's certainly a very fun class even if it's not that wonderful a class anymore, definetely one of my favourites if only for the fun factor

maxis · Post by **maxis** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:36 am

Keep/tower upkeep cost is the main difference as far as I can see

Cromcruaich · Post by **Cromcruaich** » Tue May 30, 2006 11:34 am

I absolutely hate mincers when i'm playing a solo caster. I can generally get at least a fair fight with other stealth classes, but my heart sinks when I realise its a mincer that has just popped on me.

Insta stun from stealth is a real pain and when they attack in this way no none moc3/purge caster has any realistic retalliation.

They have the interupts to keep any none moc caster completely closed down, the only time ive beaten a mincer is when ive come across them none stealthed where I can use nearsight and get the CC drop on them.

I really can't see the justification for giving them stealth, plus a charmable pet. The insta stun should be changed to an insta mez as well and/or put on the same timer as bard insta mezz's. It really is unbalanced to have a 10sec recast insta stun even though it has reduced range - there is no equivalent in hib support classes. A bard comes nowhere close in the ability to CC and interupt.

On the other point, yup can see how a seriously underpopulated realm could get significant benefit from underpop bonus for claiming and upgrading towers/keeps. Post cluster on hib we dont seem to be having any problem maintaining all our towers at a high level though. Precluster it was a problem I seem to remember.

Post by **Xest** » Tue May 30, 2006 1:26 pm

Solo non-Hib mage casters are probably one of the nicest targets for a minstrel but they're also largely non existent on Kilibury :< With no determination on minstrels even with capped resists + CL resists baseline stun was long enough for a well ToA'd hib mage to kill my minstrel before I bought toughness 3 + AoM3, if it's a chanter with ML9 there's still no chance even then. A non-MoC, non-baseline stun, non-ML9 pet solo caster is the ideal target for a minstrel for sure but again, if you can find one.

Cromcruaich wrote:I really can't see the justification for giving them stealth, plus a charmable pet. The insta stun should be changed to an insta mez as well and/or put on the same timer as bard insta mezz's. It really is unbalanced to have a 10sec recast insta stun even though it has reduced range - there is no equivalent in hib support classes. A bard comes nowhere close in the ability to CC and interupt.

Kinda silly whine tbh when no Alb casters have baseline stun

Agree minstrels having stealth is a bad thing, honestly I'd sacrifice stealth for real DPS on my minstrel any day although then I'd largely be a skald. Pet is silly to whine about too really, it's so situational that it's use in RvR is nigh on non-existent, even mentalist charm is more RvR useable because mentalist charm doesn't get interrupted by just about every other ability on the class.

On the contrary about interrupts, bards are a far far far superior interrupt class with spammable 1500 range AE mezz compared to minstrels fixed 5 sec cast time version.

Minstrels don't really have a niche that's the core problem, they don't interrupt as well as a bard/shammy/theurgist, speed is nice but nothing pally end + sorc/theurg speed doesn't really do, they sure as hell don't have the DPS and their utility is nothing groundbreaking (again when compared to resist buffs, celerity chant, end chant etc. etc.). Again in terms of soloability, nice, but still not as good as an assassin, ranger or hunter in terms of RP gain per hour although 1vs1 against these classes with all abilities up the minstrel will usually win (close with a ranger/hunter though as PD/Evade 3/Higher DPS can make up for Warguard etc.), in fact if minstrel has a niche I guess that's it - 1vs1 once every 10 - 15mins vs. a melee class. Whilst minstrels haven't been nerfed directly, they've just been a victim of time, all their opponents/counterparts have gotten stronger whilst they've become stagnant and dropped off a fair bit.

Gahn · Post by **Gahn** » Tue May 30, 2006 2:01 pm

Guess the concern was for solo Minstrels rather than grouped ones

Cromcruaich · Post by **Cromcruaich** » Tue May 30, 2006 4:18 pm

I know on these discussions it to easy to get tunnel vision, as class balance is holistic rather than having a caster whine that he cant beat a mincer.

I take on board comments about pet, its just irksome that they have the option and that its in their instruments line which they will take to 43 as standard anyway - must irritate the hell out of mentalists.

Regards bards superiority, afraid I still on balance disagree. The insta mez is on a 10 minute timer (which hopefully will get changed). After that they then have the dd shout for insta interupt after lull was nerfed (lull now only prevents a cast as it is happening and does not cause an interupt even if its resisted). Mincers then in my mind have the advantage as they have more interupts available more of the time, and it is those instas that make the difference.

Still I appreciate that there will be situations where the reduced range on these interupts toys could play a part, though they still have the aoe mez to spam (pretty much all the bard has). In addition insta confusion is significantly better than the casted confusion that bards have.

Regarding niche, ive seen them used very effectively in RvR groups in a role similiar to BL tank, PE ran with mincer for a while and it ended up being one of the top 'to take down' chars when we met them.

Gandelf · Post by **Gandelf** » Tue May 30, 2006 8:38 pm

Perhaps Mythic should change the system so that instead of giving underpopulated realms bonuses, the realm with a significantly higher population level would be penalised? E.g. reduced realm points, higher upgrade costs etc.

But, that would cause too much of a whine.

In the end, as I've said before (and for several years now), the only way Mythic is going to solve the population problem properly is by forcing new players to create characters only in underpopulated realms. Yes, I know this removes freedom of choice, but Mythic has to take into consideration existing players' feelings. With balanced population levels the game would more enjoyable, in my opinion.

Bonuses don't really count for much when you're outnumbered almost 2 to 1... extra realm points and reduced upgrade costs cannot compensate for the fact that quantity is definitely better than quality in terms of player numbers per realm, in the frontiers.