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Kesxex
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Post by Kesxex »

<ankh> wrote:..because the longer they stay the more aggressive will the iraqi's become. They dont want them there and they sure as hell wont want them more just cos they stay longer. There is no reason for british/american soldiers die fighting for something when the ones they fight for dont want their help or wont show any gratitude.
In my opinion it makes the whole thing even worse the longer they stay. Right now the American and with them the British are seen as occupants of a free land trying to impose their will on a country with different belief and cultural settings.
This is the perfect breeding ground to use propaganda to recruit persons who want to change the lifes of them and around them to a "better" - speak non-western - way of life.
The main thing that motivates them not only in Iraq but also in the countries around it and all over the world is America. And this comes down to Bush's decisions. He lost the credit that America had in that region - which cost Colin Powell his job in the end. Now Rice is trying to make nice and restore that credibility. Darn tough job.

The problem right now lies in the perceptions. If America (and Britain with it) pulls out of Iraq to remove one of the main motivations for insurgents it will also be exploited by the insurgent's propaganda as a loss in battle.
Unlike in Vietnam where the pull-out of the Americans just resulted in a country regaining its independence terrorists operate worldwide and are not interested in state affairs. Giving them this "moral" victory would destroy much of the leftover credibility that Bush has to work with in politics.

Unfortunately this means that people die for nothing due to Bush's view of the world and the actions of his administration.
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Takitothemacs
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Post by Takitothemacs »

it boils down to one thing for the brits and the yanks...

OIL.
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Post by <ankh> »

Kesxex wrote:In my opinion it makes the whole thing even worse the longer they stay. Right now the American and with them the British are seen as occupants of a free land trying to impose their will on a country with different belief and cultural settings.
This is the perfect breeding ground to use propaganda to recruit persons who want to change the lifes of them and around them to a "better" - speak non-western - way of life.
The main thing that motivates them not only in Iraq but also in the countries around it and all over the world is America. And this comes down to Bush's decisions. He lost the credit that America had in that region - which cost Colin Powell his job in the end. Now Rice is trying to make nice and restore that credibility. Darn tough job.

The problem right now lies in the perceptions. If America (and Britain with it) pulls out of Iraq to remove one of the main motivations for insurgents it will also be exploited by the insurgent's propaganda as a loss in battle.
Unlike in Vietnam where the pull-out of the Americans just resulted in a country regaining its independence terrorists operate worldwide and are not interested in state affairs. Giving them this "moral" victory would destroy much of the leftover credibility that Bush has to work with in politics.

Unfortunately this means that people die for nothing due to Bush's view of the world and the actions of his administration.
Thats pretty much how I see it too. Unfortunatly a withdraw is what they need. Withdraw doesnt always mean defeat, but as you said - it will be used against US. But the question is, which one is worse? Giving the "terrorists" something to cheer about or saving the lifes of thousands of british/american soldiers who atm die for nothing?
Im glad that Rumsfeld will resign btw...finally US will get rid of that evil bastard.

/Ankh

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Post by <ankh> »

Takitothemacs wrote:it boils down to one thing for the brits and the yanks...

OIL.
Yeah. Love how the first ones who opened their mouth after the invasion were the oil companies who informed us that they were ready to go in. As if we all had been been worried about it. Also quite disturbing to see how rich people got (well, rich-er) cos of the war too... what a coincidence that the ones who gave the thumbs up for this war are the same ones who owned shares in the weapon industry!! Talk about luck! bleh:

/Ankh

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OohhoO
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Post by OohhoO »

Banana wrote:however..
i personally believe since the troops are there they should stay there.
You cannot start something and then not finish it. It makes the situation alot worse.
For some reason this brought Northern Ireland to mind...
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Solari
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Post by Solari »

Hihi, you guys certianly can go off-topic :)
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Takitothemacs
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Post by Takitothemacs »

OohhoO wrote:For some reason this brought Northern Ireland to mind...

...and funnily enough the troubles did not end until the troops were brought out of Ulster.... there are admittedly some issues remaining but they are a damn sight less than they were with troops on the ground.
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OohhoO
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Post by OohhoO »

Kesxex wrote: Giving them this "moral" victory would destroy much of the leftover credibility that Bush has to work with in politics.
IMO Bush's little remaining credibility is more or less directly proportional to the extent in which the country concerned is a USA-dependant, so that's more USA-dependancy than Bush-credibility, and as such would remain as long as the country concerned remains USA-dependant.
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Ovi
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Post by Ovi »

Takitothemacs wrote:...and funnily enough the troubles did not end until the troops were brought out of Ulster.... there are admittedly some issues remaining but they are a damn sight less than they were with troops on the ground.
Nothing to do with the fact that the parties started talking amicably and declared an end to violence, which just happened to come before the troops left?

Back to the topic of Iraq I agree with Banana, now we are there we can't just leave. I agree we shouldn't have gone in the first place, I believe that Tony should have watched Love Actually and taken a lesson from Hugh Grant ;D

The aim should be to leave as quickly as possible, but it does need to be in a structured and organised way.

Roll on USE? at least it should break the dominance of the USA :o

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Takitothemacs
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Post by Takitothemacs »

the parties only agreed to get back around the table once it was agreed that the troops would be moved out. So it was down to the comittment to removal of the troops that provided the atmosphere for real talks to begin.
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