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Cernos
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Post by Cernos »

Lairiodd wrote:This isn't a game mechanic, it is how guilds work ?
Yep, DKP isn't part of the game engine, it's the method the majority of guilds have adopted to handle loot splits.
Ok, I don't think destroying anything is a good idea. That is just a waste.
Well, the most powerful item enchants (think of it like Alchemy in Daoc) need ingredients which only come from disenchanting high end loot. So it's not a total waste, but still pretty gutting when you see an item you could use get turned into a bunch of ingredients to make someone elses already shiny item even more glowy :)
Actually, I think it seems like a reasonably fair system.
Yes the DKP system is essentially fair, as more effort = more reward. The problem is with the game design which requires an enormous amount of hardcore play needed to obtain the top rewards, so players with 'normal' amounts of playtime end up picking up the scraps. Also, items once equipped become bound to that character, you can't pass them to other players or alts.
I am not sure how WOW raiding works, does someone on the raid have to be the one to get the item ?
Usually yes. This is because most of the best items are "Bind On Pickup". What this means is that the person who first picks them up (via winning a dice roll) or has them assigned to them (if there's a Master Looter system in place) will become the permanent owner of the item and it cannot be passed to another player (or even alt). So, ownership has to be decided there and then on the raid.

There are "Bind on Equip" items which can be passed to other characters and traded, but these tend to be lesser items. Most of the top armour and weapon sets are "Bind On Pickup" which can be great fun when the item you want to roll on gets 'ninjad' by someone else who can't even use it (so it gets soulbound to them but they can't even equip it).

Argyleyn
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Post by Argyleyn »

First of all, daoc or wow are not for casual players.

In the same way you will get crushed if you do rvr in daoc 3-4 hours a week, in the same little time you won't achieve anything significant in wow endgame other than fun little stuff. You can pvp for fun or do a small instance but you won't really see any progress, that much is true.

I still stand by my opinion though that wow is less time consuming at top end game. Someone can afford to play minimum ~10-12 hours a week (and it must be on a regular basis and in chunks, i.e. spent 8 of those hours in one day) and he can participate in wow endgame and gain from it. Slower, true, but he can. In wow, there are people with little time that do participate in the top endgame, on the average server.

The thing similar to wow's 40 man raiding is 8vs8 in daoc.

Even if someone in daoc plays with a dedicated group for that time roaming with a fg he won't achieve nothing really. 10 hours a week in daoc and you are nowhere near the dominant guilds of your server, assuming an average server again.

You can ofcourse do some zerging around and stuff, but you will be happy if you gain, what, 3-4k rp's? With the same time in wow you can propably do strat/scholo or do 20-30 AB games which is approximately the same minimal gain as 3-4k rp's.

All in all, no game is really meant for the casual player when it comes to endgame if he wants to do progress. If he just wants to fool around, sure, both provide some form of entertainment.

As for the dkp system, most of what i hear here sounds like someone met a horrible dkp implementation. First of all, to stop hardcore people from hoarding dkp most guilds set a dkp cap over which you can't gain any more. So noone can have 7k dkp when others are constantly between 200-300. Our cap is at 200 dkp, with an average bwl raid giving 30 dkp to everyone there. So someone can get close to the cap in about 6-7 raids and is guaranteed to get 1 or more realistically 2 bwl items within those 2 weeks or ~35 hours of playing, which isn't that time consuming i think. It's up to everyone's schedule though to judge that.

I have never seen something getting disenchanted when someone needed it, you just go into negative dkp. I know almost all raid guilds/communities in my server and i know of noone that does something that stupid.

In the end though it will reward the hardcore more than the casuals. But that's the point of it anyway, because someone who is there all the time deserves and needs more items than someone who passes by. You can't really give items to people you are unsure if they will leg it to a bg after they get their precious epix. The game rewards consistency, that's sure, if you can't decide who your main is or if all you want is items to pvp with, you are pretty much screwed. No raid is going to let you get items to pvp unless you plan to be around a long time.

As for alts and guests they get their share after the mains do. My alt warrior has 5/8 might now and i rarely play him just because everyone had it.

As for raiding all in all, i guess i like it while other people don't, but i would reserve judgement for it until after mc. MC is what gives raiding a bad name as it's an uninspiring, boring, ridiculous and unappealing instance in multiple levels, like encounter design, art design etc. It only has good items really and it serves as a training ground for wannabe raiders to understand basic concepts of it. If you are at least halfway through bwl though and you still find raiding boring, i think it's time to get out of it.
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Elrandhir
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Post by Elrandhir »

Argyleyn wrote: You can ofcourse do some zerging around and stuff, but you will be happy if you gain, what, 3-4k rp's? With the same time in wow you can propably do strat/scholo or do 20-30 AB games which is approximately the same minimal gain as 3-4k rp's.

I get 3-4k on my ranger in maby 15 mins without really trying hard, sometimes I get more, and sometimes less, depends on how RvR is that day.

Got 40k without trying hard day before yesterday in couple of hours.
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Xest
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Post by Xest »

ShiShi wrote:btw, what did exactly Mythic to fix downtime? anything to game mechanics ? (hp/mana reg, mobs hp, dam etc) or u mean here just spawn times and such stuff? what i meant was mainly the mechanics related to purely classes and fight system, not the environment
They removed the below 50% penalty on mana regen and increase mana regen and health speeds at the lower levels scaling upto normal at 50, they also made mobs below level 20 twice as easy to kill or something like that. Catacombs dungeons helped a whole lot with instancing and such of course too - you don't have to fight for camp bonus, for mobs or struggle to find mobs the right level, it does it all for you! Also there's newbie quests that give you full sets of low level armour and such.

Honestly I really think DAoC's by far the better game it's definetely far more casual than WoW nowadays. Mythics problems were not having the massive following Blizzard had to have as high an initial playerbase and not fixing some core issues soon enough, if DAoC was released nowwith the hype/following of WoW I think there'd be a pretty decent consensus that it was the better game - it's PvE really is much more casual and easy going now and it's RvR is just infintely better, WoW's PvP system doesn't even come close from what I've seen at LANs and read. Other than that Mythic need to be a little less clueless on class balance but then you're getting into game mechanics and I guess it's impossible to make any MMOG with mechanics that'll please everyone, for instance, Whereas some hate DAoC's interrupts I hate WoW's no interrupt system, it seems rather childish and far too simplistic and skilless but I guess that's also why it's able to attract such a large playerbase.

Still even now I don't think any MMOG is as fun as Ultima Online ;) It just had so much depth and was much more skill based - you could kill some of the larger boss mobs in game if you were skilled enough and you didn't have to be twinked to the max to do so, I never wore armour on my mage for example because I thought it looked lame yet it didn't do much at all to weaken my character because I knew how to kite, use what spells when and how to use pouches and potions well, could you imagine running round armourless (well equivalent is with your self-buffs down) in DAoC? you'd just insta-die to a charge 3 light tank that you have absolutely no way whatsoever of escaping from if you get caught by skald snare, minstrel stun, champ snare or something. It's just a shame OSI lost the plot with UO (ninjas, wtf :p) and the engine got so dated else I'd still be playing! :p
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Ovi
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Post by Ovi »

Sorry, but I still think Wow is still far more casual friendly than DAoC.

Don't see many BBs in Wow, that's a big plus too for casual players. That was the main reason I stopped playing DAoC, and why I will almost certainly never come back. Why should I pay for 2 accounts, just to do what I can do with 1 account in other games? I certainly can't afford to run 2 machines at the moment either, making the second account even less useful.

Yes I know you can Scrounge Buffs of others, but that shouldn't be needed.

Ovi
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Post by Ovi »

Xest wrote: Whereas some hate DAoC's interrupts I hate WoW's no interrupt system, it seems rather childish and far too simplistic and skilless but I guess that's also why it's able to attract such a large playerbase.
Sorry, but I think Wow's interupt system is more complex than DAoCs. It isn't a no interupt system. Rather than fully interupt normal damage delays, which still makes a big difference when trying to cast a crucial spell. Each class also has abilities that interupt completely, some stopping further casting for a period of time for all or just one school of magic.

Whilst at first glance at low levels it may seem childish, I think it actually adapts quite well to player ability. For the really casual people who just PvE outside the raid instances it is easy to deal with etc, start PvPing or raiding the higher instances and the more the full interupt abilities come into play.

That's why it attracts such a large player base, the game is playable at many different levels, from the solo PvEr, to the small guilds raiding the 5/10 man instances to the bigger guilds able to do 20-man instances right up to the Hardcore raiding guilds farming the 40-man instances!

The PvP doesn't rely on "twitching", you get time to think and time to find the right button to press, even with my reactions I can win 1v1s! Exactly what I was after in a MMORPG. If I wanted PvP that relied on twitching I would play a FPS, and would get fairer fights than DAoC usually provides too. That is now all that DAoC offers over WoW, and the future of Wow looks a whole lot better than DAoC too since the announcement of Warhammer.

Xest
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Post by Xest »

Ovi wrote:Sorry, but I think Wow's interupt system is more complex than DAoCs. It isn't a no interupt system. Rather than fully interupt normal damage delays, which still makes a big difference when trying to cast a crucial spell. Each class also has abilities that interupt completely, some stopping further casting for a period of time for all or just one school of magic.

Whilst at first glance at low levels it may seem childish, I think it actually adapts quite well to player ability. For the really casual people who just PvE outside the raid instances it is easy to deal with etc, start PvPing or raiding the higher instances and the more the full interupt abilities come into play.

That's why it attracts such a large player base, the game is playable at many different levels, from the solo PvEr, to the small guilds raiding the 5/10 man instances to the bigger guilds able to do 20-man instances right up to the Hardcore raiding guilds farming the 40-man instances!

The PvP doesn't rely on "twitching", you get time to think and time to find the right button to press, even with my reactions I can win 1v1s! Exactly what I was after in a MMORPG. If I wanted PvP that relied on twitching I would play a FPS, and would get fairer fights than DAoC usually provides too. That is now all that DAoC offers over WoW, and the future of Wow looks a whole lot better than DAoC too since the announcement of Warhammer.
Well DAoC's a dying MMOG, it's coming upto it's 5th year or smth now silly to think it'd be able to compete with WoW in the future now - also as mentioned DAoC never had the masses of Blizzard fanbois from day 1 either so was never going to make the 6 million subscribers WoW has. The thing is though the fact DAoC's PvP is so far superior to WoW's still is a testament to how good it actually is seeing as DAoC was the first true 3D PvP focussed MMOG - that was quite a technical challenge to deal with when DAoC was released. It'll be interesting to see how Warhammer does, Mythic's already proven they're the superior development house when it comes to building a good MMOG with the resources they had, they've just never had the initial following, the massive pool of funds, the massive dev. team and the massive amount of IP - when you take that into account and the immensely long development time of WoW (~6yrs) it's a suprise that DAoC can even be compared to WoW, put simply, WoW should be a whole lot better than it is, but it's not.
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Succi
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Post by Succi »

WoW was far too simple, universal spell timers were there to give people whose brain didnt work very fast a chance to survive in pvp. I got bored of spamming the same combo's on my mage and not being able to do 2 things once e.g hitting single insta on grp leader whilst casting ae mezz in daoc
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Ovi
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Post by Ovi »

Succi wrote:WoW was far too simple, universal spell timers were there to give people whose brain didnt work very fast a chance to survive in pvp. I got bored of spamming the same combo's on my mage and not being able to do 2 things once e.g hitting single insta on grp leader whilst casting ae mezz in daoc
Twitching is, in my experience, rarely dictated by Brain speed. Quick reactions do not equal quick brain speed, invariably the quickest act on instinct i.e. very little brain involvement at all. Instinct comes from repetition of tasks, oh wait, another reason DAoC favours the hardcore over the casual!

I play games for fun, I don't want to have to practice for hours on end to be able to compete, I like to sit, relax and chat too. DAoC probably does take more skill to be competitive at, that doesn't necessarily make it the better game.

Ovi
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Post by Ovi »

Xest wrote:Well DAoC's a dying MMOG, it's coming upto it's 5th year or smth now silly to think it'd be able to compete with WoW in the future now - also as mentioned DAoC never had the masses of Blizzard fanbois from day 1 either so was never going to make the 6 million subscribers WoW has. The thing is though the fact DAoC's PvP is so far superior to WoW's still is a testament to how good it actually is seeing as DAoC was the first true 3D PvP focussed MMOG - that was quite a technical challenge to deal with when DAoC was released. It'll be interesting to see how Warhammer does, Mythic's already proven they're the superior development house when it comes to building a good MMOG with the resources they had, they've just never had the initial following, the massive pool of funds, the massive dev. team and the massive amount of IP - when you take that into account and the immensely long development time of WoW (~6yrs) it's a suprise that DAoC can even be compared to WoW, put simply, WoW should be a whole lot better than it is, but it's not.

The discussion is about now, not 5 years ago. It's also not about who has the money to do what. It's not even about PvP! The topic was that "ToA > Wow PvE". Maybe Wow should have been better, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is (IMO) miles better than DAoC for PvE.

Each to their own, but 6 million agree with me ;)

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