"when we get BGs......"
Actually if your waiting for PvP your gonna be very disappointed with BGs. The only real PvP addition Blizzard are making is with the Honor system and that comes in a few weeks time next patch, and you dont need, and indeed most likely wont want to go to BGs in order to build on that. In most likely fashion one normal zone thats easily accessable by both realms will be the "Emain" of WoW where most Alliance/Horde will go to purely to farm and rack up Rank points.
All BGs are, are PvE instances which are contested zones allowing players from both sides in at the same time.
The point may be about defeating the enemy base, but you do that by PvEing, you complete PvE quests to build up your own NPC guards, you perform PvE rituals to summon Elite PvE mobs, and when you win it will be 9/10 times because your PvE Elites stampede over the enemy, and you will lose when your enemies PvE NPCs stampede over you.
And when you win a BG...your reward? You get to kill PvE Elite mobs for uber loot without the enemies distraction for a couple of hours.
If you want PvP, WoW is just not the game you should be playing, it may of advertised itself as a PvE/PvP hybrid, but WoW is a lot more akin to FF11 and EQ than it is to Shadowbane and DAOC. Not that thats in any way a bad thing.
WoW is bloody ace!
Actually i think they said in their last FAQ that more honor points will be granted in battleground areas and i suppose that will motivate lots of people.
Even so, at the current stage of the game there is really not just one zone that everyone goes in, there are the capital cities that lots of raids end to, crossroads, hillsbrad, STV, lots of places to find good pvp action really.
Wow's pve endgame might look a lot like eq's and it's pvp system might not be as sophisticated as daoc's with stuff like ranks, ra's, towers/keeps/relics etc etc but it's core system is a very solid one, as balance between the 2 factions is obviously very good since they share almost the same classes and you can find all kind of pvp, solo, gvg, zerg vs zerg etc etc and you can find that everywhere, since the game's system is designed in such a way that almost every zone will have quite some people doing quests. It's much more easy going than daoc, if you actually go to a zone with people around your level solo (provided you are not at a super pop server) you will certainly find people to fight and win some, while in daoc your chances of succesful pvp soloing are really low unless you are a stealther or play in an underpopulated realm. And group sizes of 5 makes it much easier to assemble groups quickly.
Even so, at the current stage of the game there is really not just one zone that everyone goes in, there are the capital cities that lots of raids end to, crossroads, hillsbrad, STV, lots of places to find good pvp action really.
Wow's pve endgame might look a lot like eq's and it's pvp system might not be as sophisticated as daoc's with stuff like ranks, ra's, towers/keeps/relics etc etc but it's core system is a very solid one, as balance between the 2 factions is obviously very good since they share almost the same classes and you can find all kind of pvp, solo, gvg, zerg vs zerg etc etc and you can find that everywhere, since the game's system is designed in such a way that almost every zone will have quite some people doing quests. It's much more easy going than daoc, if you actually go to a zone with people around your level solo (provided you are not at a super pop server) you will certainly find people to fight and win some, while in daoc your chances of succesful pvp soloing are really low unless you are a stealther or play in an underpopulated realm. And group sizes of 5 makes it much easier to assemble groups quickly.
Argyleyn, ex raven ardent prime prestidigitist.
Well In DAoC casual players don't go in frontiers to farm RPs, but to defend/attack keeps/towers and generaly have fun. And I believe Blizz is putting in missions and stuff to make happy as many players as possible. And mass of happy people running around is always attractive for PvP groups. Since you don't get (so they said) RPs for killing NPCs (except faction leaders in main cities ) I doub't PvPers will really care if casual players prefer doing quests over RP farming...
Hep, treated MMORPG addict, on the way to master his uni
Morana, one of a few Rangers, that did not Zerg. Retired for good.
Morana, one of a few Rangers, that did not Zerg. Retired for good.
Actually they said you can get honor points in bg's by doing other stuff than killing other people (that's why they said people will get honor faster in bg's) but they haven't clarified what they meant. I assume they propably mean some sort of bonus for capturing a key point on the map.
Argyleyn, ex raven ardent prime prestidigitist.
"Actually i think they said in their last FAQ that more honor points will be granted in battleground areas and i suppose that will motivate lots of people."
Originally you were supposed to get a substantial amount of Honor points added to the "Honor Point pool"...because you dont get honor points per kill, every kill adds points to a realm pool, and then once a week or something the total is split between all the people that participated in PvP %wise depending on how its calculated...so its probably how much damage you dealt, or healed or something, they havent clarified their calculations yet.
However since theyve made BGs instanced now...remember originally they were only going to have 1 that people queued for, they cant really adopt a system for rewarding people for winning a BG, when its all possible on extreme population servers that one side may well get 3-4 instances where they have no enemy at all to fight against, making it easy wins. So I expect that system will be scrapped. Even with 1 BG those bonus rewards wont justify people wanting to PvP in BGs for the extra bonuses...because the queue will put people off, and it will be a lot easier to just run to an easy normal zone and get ganking so to speak.
"Even so, at the current stage of the game there is really not just one zone that everyone goes in, there are the capital cities that lots of raids end to, crossroads, hillsbrad, STV, lots of places to find good pvp action really."
Yes at the current stage of the game, remember tho, when DAOC was out people wernt running straight out to Emain in buffbotted optimized groups and getting into the action. The game is new, people are still exploring, for the majority case PvP isnt even something they aim to do, as their still exploring the world, levelling, etc. When more people are 60, and their character development goals are to go up the PvP ranks, you will soon find people taking to one specific zone, most likely similer to Emain, where its easily accessable, and theres a limited supply of PvE mopbs to interfere...another reason why people wont go to BGs for "PvP"...if your PvPing, whether its for the fun of PvP, or to develop your characters PvP rank side, you dont want to be sidetracked questing, and killing NPC guards, which ultimately wont have any major factor in your gaining ranks, sheerly due to the fact that if it did, people would not PvP and instead farm NPCs.
"balance between the 2 factions is obviously very good since they share almost the same classes and you can find all kind of pvp, solo, gvg, zerg vs zerg etc etc and you can find that everywhere, since the game's system is designed in such a way that almost every zone will have quite some people doing quests."
It ooks that way now, because its new, games change drastically tho when people start hitting cap level and looking for things to do. Blizzard have done an amazing thing by duplicating class between realms for balance...however they have also significantly reduced the games replay factor, leaving only 9 characters for altaholics to play around with, compared to other games 20+.
Also most balance issues, derive around the group setup. If you have even 9 characters in WoW, but a fg is only allowed to be 5 people...you have balance problems. 1 Combination no matter how well the classes are balanced between one another, is going to be stronger than another. Some group spots are already reserved for healers, normally at least 2, which leaves 3 spots for 7 other characters per realm. There will be a time in WoW, when people are focusing purely on their PvP ranks, 1 zone will become the "norm" to go to, and groups will be optimized for gank performance...this is unavoidable, unless you design a system where the group size is large enough to have 1 of each class in it, and you cannot have more than 1 of any class...but that system has so manyproblems its never going to happen, besides it being the only way to truly balance PvP group warfare.
"It's much more easy going than daoc, if you actually go to a zone with people around your level solo (provided you are not at a super pop server) you will certainly find people to fight and win some"
Again...your looking at the game in newness form, as it gets older, there will be less lower level characters, many people dont make alts...or at least not very high ones, most veterens look for the quickest easiest ways to powerlevel characters to top level once theyve done it once, on PvE servers people are unlikely to turn their PvP flags on if their looking to level as fast as pos, the games entire face changes when your population begins to cap out and concentrate on "endgame"...and WoW wont be any different....except that its face will change a lot LOT quicker, because its so easy to level...which despite being heralded as an amazing revolution in MMORPGs...is really gonna bite it in the ass and in fact is alredy doing so.
"while in daoc your chances of succesful pvp soloing are really low unless you are a stealther or play in an underpopulated realm."
Now yes....not 3 years ago tho.
"Well In DAoC casual players don't go in frontiers to farm RPs, but to defend/attack keeps/towers and generaly have fun."
Thats not 100% true, at least not before NF, I cant count how many keeptakes I used to lead when people used to gang up on me to take the force to zerg Emain because thats where the rps is. Remember, most people only PvP in DAOC, purely for the evolution of their character, so if their not getting rps, then it was a waste of time to many. Rarely would people sit around for more than 10minutes in a keep if no one came to retake, the only reason many people joined keeptake raids was because it was advertised PvP events, where they didnt have to get a group together and sit around ligen waiting, given the option to go on a keeptake, or participate in an Eclipse or NP group running to Emain, Im pretty sure many of the keeptakers would choose the Emain run over the keep....myself included
.
"And I believe Blizz is putting in missions and stuff to make happy as many players as possible. And mass of happy people running around is always attractive for PvP groups."
And those people are happy now...but when they start getting consistently farmed from PvP groups looking to farm them, they will soon get bored, make angry threads on forums, and stop going to those PvP areas. Thats already a factor in many of the PvP servers where level 20's are being thrust into zones to level where level 60's are open to just run around and 2 shot them.
"Since you don't get (so they said) RPs for killing NPCs (except faction leaders in main cities ) I doub't PvPers will really care if casual players prefer doing quests over RP farming..."
Yea they wont care...but talking on BGs now, PvPers are not going to go to BGs to farm these people. For one, theres having to deal with all the PvE mobs around, two, they will have their own realm whining for them to continually do the PvE quests to help win the BG...which if they dont do they end up getting zerged by elite PvE mobs in retribution, three, when they win the BG, theres no longer anyone to kill, but instead a 2hours whatever wait or go farm PvE mobs...overall its just a lot easier to do runs to a zone that doesnt require waiting in a queue for enemies to appear, and fight against other people on the same mindset, than it is to run around doing BGs.
BGs look to be a ton of fun...but they wont be the place where cap level rank defining PvP will take place, and that is what the majority of people level60+ will be doing PvP for when the Honor point system is implemented come next patch.
Originally you were supposed to get a substantial amount of Honor points added to the "Honor Point pool"...because you dont get honor points per kill, every kill adds points to a realm pool, and then once a week or something the total is split between all the people that participated in PvP %wise depending on how its calculated...so its probably how much damage you dealt, or healed or something, they havent clarified their calculations yet.
However since theyve made BGs instanced now...remember originally they were only going to have 1 that people queued for, they cant really adopt a system for rewarding people for winning a BG, when its all possible on extreme population servers that one side may well get 3-4 instances where they have no enemy at all to fight against, making it easy wins. So I expect that system will be scrapped. Even with 1 BG those bonus rewards wont justify people wanting to PvP in BGs for the extra bonuses...because the queue will put people off, and it will be a lot easier to just run to an easy normal zone and get ganking so to speak.
"Even so, at the current stage of the game there is really not just one zone that everyone goes in, there are the capital cities that lots of raids end to, crossroads, hillsbrad, STV, lots of places to find good pvp action really."
Yes at the current stage of the game, remember tho, when DAOC was out people wernt running straight out to Emain in buffbotted optimized groups and getting into the action. The game is new, people are still exploring, for the majority case PvP isnt even something they aim to do, as their still exploring the world, levelling, etc. When more people are 60, and their character development goals are to go up the PvP ranks, you will soon find people taking to one specific zone, most likely similer to Emain, where its easily accessable, and theres a limited supply of PvE mopbs to interfere...another reason why people wont go to BGs for "PvP"...if your PvPing, whether its for the fun of PvP, or to develop your characters PvP rank side, you dont want to be sidetracked questing, and killing NPC guards, which ultimately wont have any major factor in your gaining ranks, sheerly due to the fact that if it did, people would not PvP and instead farm NPCs.
"balance between the 2 factions is obviously very good since they share almost the same classes and you can find all kind of pvp, solo, gvg, zerg vs zerg etc etc and you can find that everywhere, since the game's system is designed in such a way that almost every zone will have quite some people doing quests."
It ooks that way now, because its new, games change drastically tho when people start hitting cap level and looking for things to do. Blizzard have done an amazing thing by duplicating class between realms for balance...however they have also significantly reduced the games replay factor, leaving only 9 characters for altaholics to play around with, compared to other games 20+.
Also most balance issues, derive around the group setup. If you have even 9 characters in WoW, but a fg is only allowed to be 5 people...you have balance problems. 1 Combination no matter how well the classes are balanced between one another, is going to be stronger than another. Some group spots are already reserved for healers, normally at least 2, which leaves 3 spots for 7 other characters per realm. There will be a time in WoW, when people are focusing purely on their PvP ranks, 1 zone will become the "norm" to go to, and groups will be optimized for gank performance...this is unavoidable, unless you design a system where the group size is large enough to have 1 of each class in it, and you cannot have more than 1 of any class...but that system has so manyproblems its never going to happen, besides it being the only way to truly balance PvP group warfare.
"It's much more easy going than daoc, if you actually go to a zone with people around your level solo (provided you are not at a super pop server) you will certainly find people to fight and win some"
Again...your looking at the game in newness form, as it gets older, there will be less lower level characters, many people dont make alts...or at least not very high ones, most veterens look for the quickest easiest ways to powerlevel characters to top level once theyve done it once, on PvE servers people are unlikely to turn their PvP flags on if their looking to level as fast as pos, the games entire face changes when your population begins to cap out and concentrate on "endgame"...and WoW wont be any different....except that its face will change a lot LOT quicker, because its so easy to level...which despite being heralded as an amazing revolution in MMORPGs...is really gonna bite it in the ass and in fact is alredy doing so.
"while in daoc your chances of succesful pvp soloing are really low unless you are a stealther or play in an underpopulated realm."
Now yes....not 3 years ago tho.
"Well In DAoC casual players don't go in frontiers to farm RPs, but to defend/attack keeps/towers and generaly have fun."
Thats not 100% true, at least not before NF, I cant count how many keeptakes I used to lead when people used to gang up on me to take the force to zerg Emain because thats where the rps is. Remember, most people only PvP in DAOC, purely for the evolution of their character, so if their not getting rps, then it was a waste of time to many. Rarely would people sit around for more than 10minutes in a keep if no one came to retake, the only reason many people joined keeptake raids was because it was advertised PvP events, where they didnt have to get a group together and sit around ligen waiting, given the option to go on a keeptake, or participate in an Eclipse or NP group running to Emain, Im pretty sure many of the keeptakers would choose the Emain run over the keep....myself included
."And I believe Blizz is putting in missions and stuff to make happy as many players as possible. And mass of happy people running around is always attractive for PvP groups."
And those people are happy now...but when they start getting consistently farmed from PvP groups looking to farm them, they will soon get bored, make angry threads on forums, and stop going to those PvP areas. Thats already a factor in many of the PvP servers where level 20's are being thrust into zones to level where level 60's are open to just run around and 2 shot them.
"Since you don't get (so they said) RPs for killing NPCs (except faction leaders in main cities ) I doub't PvPers will really care if casual players prefer doing quests over RP farming..."
Yea they wont care...but talking on BGs now, PvPers are not going to go to BGs to farm these people. For one, theres having to deal with all the PvE mobs around, two, they will have their own realm whining for them to continually do the PvE quests to help win the BG...which if they dont do they end up getting zerged by elite PvE mobs in retribution, three, when they win the BG, theres no longer anyone to kill, but instead a 2hours whatever wait or go farm PvE mobs...overall its just a lot easier to do runs to a zone that doesnt require waiting in a queue for enemies to appear, and fight against other people on the same mindset, than it is to run around doing BGs.
BGs look to be a ton of fun...but they wont be the place where cap level rank defining PvP will take place, and that is what the majority of people level60+ will be doing PvP for when the Honor point system is implemented come next patch.
It does look like they've rather missed the point a bit with battlegrounds. Making PvE a significant part of it is ludicrous, and there's just not a big enough motivator to get people there. Still, the proof will be in the eating, so it might be worth hanging around to try it out, as long as they don't take too long to deliver.
Peat Bog, Animist <Iron Wolves>
Cryn Twyn, Bard <Iron Wolves>
Tape Gob, Eldritch <Iron Wolves>
Inventor of the Lagapult™
House 3303, Cior Barr. Come Visit.
Now playing ... WAR on Karak Eight Peaks
Irony, Runepriest <NFD>
Sable, Witch Hunter <NFD>
Cryn Twyn, Bard <Iron Wolves>
Tape Gob, Eldritch <Iron Wolves>
Inventor of the Lagapult™
House 3303, Cior Barr. Come Visit.
Now playing ... WAR on Karak Eight Peaks
Irony, Runepriest <NFD>
Sable, Witch Hunter <NFD>
Hehe Venoid I found out that based on data Blizzard provided sofar both mine and your story can be true. Fact is we don't really know how they will do it, so I guess we'll have to wait and see :mezz:
Hep, treated MMORPG addict, on the way to master his uni
Morana, one of a few Rangers, that did not Zerg. Retired for good.
Morana, one of a few Rangers, that did not Zerg. Retired for good.
Yea, but you dont need to know the system to know how players are going to react .
Bottom line is, they are not going to allow you to get large amounts of PvP rank points by PvEing...this is the reason why Mythic are so careful not to hand out rps for doing stuff like keeptakes...because if you get to a point when people can earn more points and experiance committing in PvE acts when they should be PvPing...then players will commit in PvE acts and ignore PvP.
Its also a fact...that many people that PvP...simply want to kill other players. It is very rare for anyone in any game that is PvPing to find someone that doesnt stand a chance, or is obviously there for something other than PvP, and for them to ignore them and let them go on their way...it just doesnt happen all that often.
Theres also what I like to call the "Evulweebeastie" players, that will actually intentionally go and camp areas they know that PvEers commonly go by...think Ramons tower...generally because of quests, just to farm the easy kills. This is already rife on PvP servers with their horrid level in contested zones past 20...btw how is Stormscale?
You can put quests and carrots and attempt to attract PvEers into PvP zones to spice up the PvP...bottom line is, if people dont want to PvP, most wont go to PvP zones especially after theyve been killed in the same places 5+ times in one night...even if theres a PvE reason to go. People soon get fed up running out somewhere to do something, to have other players come and kill them and send them back to repeat.
Blizzards BGs look cool, and look fun, but they have a distinct case of rose tinted glasses, same as what Mythic continually have with a lot of their stuff, its easy to think of really cool game systems, and write down on paper how things work, how players should react, but when placed with players that are simply looking to win at any cost, many of the fine rules that are required to be running for this amazing system to work...get thrown out the window.
This is the exact same thing that happened with Mythics NF. In Beta, when people are running around the frontiers trying to test stuff, and experiance it things were all fun and seemed cool...then you put it on a live server, and you see the issues when players play purely to win, and you get unforeseen issues that arise and ruin that perfect world. Blizzard are good...but they should really start laying off the act as if other MMORPG companies are just screwing their playerbases over and they can do things so much better and different...because 99% of the time its the playerbase themselves that ruin a game, not the developers and their ideas/coding.
.Bottom line is, they are not going to allow you to get large amounts of PvP rank points by PvEing...this is the reason why Mythic are so careful not to hand out rps for doing stuff like keeptakes...because if you get to a point when people can earn more points and experiance committing in PvE acts when they should be PvPing...then players will commit in PvE acts and ignore PvP
.Its also a fact...that many people that PvP...simply want to kill other players. It is very rare for anyone in any game that is PvPing to find someone that doesnt stand a chance, or is obviously there for something other than PvP, and for them to ignore them and let them go on their way...it just doesnt happen all that often.
Theres also what I like to call the "Evulweebeastie" players, that will actually intentionally go and camp areas they know that PvEers commonly go by...think Ramons tower...generally because of quests, just to farm the easy kills. This is already rife on PvP servers with their horrid level in contested zones past 20...btw how is Stormscale?
You can put quests and carrots and attempt to attract PvEers into PvP zones to spice up the PvP...bottom line is, if people dont want to PvP, most wont go to PvP zones especially after theyve been killed in the same places 5+ times in one night...even if theres a PvE reason to go. People soon get fed up running out somewhere to do something, to have other players come and kill them and send them back to repeat.
Blizzards BGs look cool, and look fun, but they have a distinct case of rose tinted glasses, same as what Mythic continually have with a lot of their stuff, its easy to think of really cool game systems, and write down on paper how things work, how players should react, but when placed with players that are simply looking to win at any cost, many of the fine rules that are required to be running for this amazing system to work...get thrown out the window.
This is the exact same thing that happened with Mythics NF. In Beta, when people are running around the frontiers trying to test stuff, and experiance it things were all fun and seemed cool...then you put it on a live server, and you see the issues when players play purely to win, and you get unforeseen issues that arise and ruin that perfect world. Blizzard are good...but they should really start laying off the act as if other MMORPG companies are just screwing their playerbases over and they can do things so much better and different...because 99% of the time its the playerbase themselves that ruin a game, not the developers and their ideas/coding.
Think WoW was really good, have lvled a mage to 44, but gotten bit tired of it now, guess it´s mostly because most friends of mine aint playing it.
Nother reason is that it´s to cute really, I like rpg´s to be bit more "Dark" =P
Still it´s a good game, noone can take that away from WoW, just aint what I really have been looking for, I would like a new Daoc really, something similar but fresh
and I really don´t think WoW will ever get as good as Daoc has been PvP wise.
Still if all my friends would swop to WoW I would to
Any Hib/Prydwen players on Silvermoon?
Nother reason is that it´s to cute really, I like rpg´s to be bit more "Dark" =P
Still it´s a good game, noone can take that away from WoW, just aint what I really have been looking for, I would like a new Daoc really, something similar but fresh
and I really don´t think WoW will ever get as good as Daoc has been PvP wise.Still if all my friends would swop to WoW I would to
Any Hib/Prydwen players on Silvermoon?
Elrandhir L50 Hero 7l7 Thunderer
Elthorian L50 6l7 Ranger Silverhand
Elthunder L50 4lx Eldritch
Elrandhira L50 5lx Druid BB
Elradah L50 Easymode Bainshee
Shimari L50 Animist
Ailanah L50 Enchanter
Vinterwolf L50 gimp Bard
<Crimson Tears>
(N)o (P)aiN (N)o (G)aiN
Elthorian L50 6l7 Ranger Silverhand
Elthunder L50 4lx Eldritch
Elrandhira L50 5lx Druid BB
Elradah L50 Easymode Bainshee
Shimari L50 Animist
Ailanah L50 Enchanter
Vinterwolf L50 gimp Bard
<Crimson Tears>
(N)o (P)aiN (N)o (G)aiN