Freeshard

[Sharkith]

very interesting discussion. A forum is about discussing things. People might say things others disagree with but discussing things was and is not illegal at least as long as your not asking us to blow up the Queen which I haven't seen anyone do here and technically that would not be a discussion anyway. So nice thread for those reasons and I found it interesting even though after finishing reading it I am no more inclined to go for free shard than I was at the start.

Moving the thread was the right thing to do and as for the anti free shard sentiment - I do understand it. I can see how the whole industry has had a long history of this kind of activity and to see that it is actually sanctioned in some way should tell you why this is the case. Its a norm and it is an important norm for the industry - companies might not like it but effectively this kind of activity is where a lot of innovation comes from. I suspect.

There is more to this than simply the law. If I was to study it I would take older examples where a games code became modified in order to keep the game alive. Or I would look at reverse enginering where this led to new technology and so on. Essentially this is bigger than GOA and Mythic and although some of us are closely related to them we should understand why this is the case.

As for GOA employees not coming here anymore. Sorry but I don't see the discussions suffering because of their attendance. You might hate me for saying that but they were not exactly great debaters where they?

So nice thread and interesting topic. I am still paying me subs and could not really care that much - maybe Mythic should try the game on a free shard thouogh because maybe those guys have made it better?:)

[<ankh>]

It would need instances that change difficulty depending on the people in the instance, not just number and level of characters, but also taking into account classes. The reward for the task should be the same for whatever the group is too.

I know that is vague, and what is there is very hard to achieve. But that's the way to improve grouping in MMORPGs imo

I started to read your post and before I even got as far as the part I quoted, I got the exact same idea as you got when I reached your suggestion. Odd eh?
But I agree...but the question is if it really would be so incredible hard..Im pretty sure it would be possible. Its just a matter of implanting alot of IF's and IF NOT's ...kind of anyway..

/Ankh

[Ovi]

I don't think it's impossible, and i think it will come. DAoCs task dungeons are the first step, just need the difficulty to change more dynamically and to make them more interesting tactically.

[Takitothemacs]

Some interesting perspectives on the topic.

Now what I have is an interesting theory.

As Mythic and GOA make the software available in it's entirety for download does that not constitute that the software is in fact in the public domain and free to obtain?

That said what do subscribers pay for? According to the subscription information on the page on the GOA site the subscription is in fact for your "Player Account" with the items and characters contained therein only in effect on "lease" and the characters items and coins remain the property of mythic/GOA respectively.

So as the software is freely available for download, is it not possible for a team of developers to create their own servers on which to host another "Version" of the game which they have had to write from scratch which has different keep/frontier configuration, different XP, different rewards but including some of the things available from the client software that is freely available is that illegal? In all honesty I think not.

Think of the wonderful people at westfield... the westy for those unaware is a make of kit car, usually using a ford escort engine and chasis as the building blocks, many others can be used but this example will serve a purpose. Ford seem happy enough that westys use their component parts, and even Caterham dont seem too preturbed about the likeness of the westy bodyshape to the classic caterham 7...

Is it illegal for people to take components from things that are available and create different versions of their choosing from the parts? Simple answer, no.

Is the westy claiming to be a ford escort or a caterham 7? Simple answer, no.

Does it provide enthusiasts with a means to extend their hobby of building kit cars? Simple answer, yes.

Now, will these freeshard servers attract a large proportion of the existing population away from the mythic/GOA servers? Quite possibly, yes, however there are a hard core of players that actually enjoy the game in its current format and remain happy to pay their subs such that they can continue to enjoy the game that they play and profit from the enjoyment that they get from the community that they are a part of and have been a part of for so many years now.

Is it fair to say that freeshards will have a destructive infulence on the community... I guess so to a certain extent, however lets take some other destructive influences that have had an effect on the dwindling european populations across the GOA servers:

From day one, GOA have failed to advertise, merchandise or even ensure adequate stock levels in shops or secure a reasonable distribution process to get enough people on board. They should not have simply seen it as a boon that they may have had to get more servers IF they had marketed the game correctly from the start but rather that they would have had an even bigger level of income.

Historically thinking back through the past few years... years ago, Sony online Entertainment provided a pull from the playerbase with the release of Planetside, vast numbers of people disappeared from the game at that time to try a new game, following that was asherons call, Guild wars, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, all of which have had their own pull for a number of players. Yes mythic have released patches and improved content to keep players interested or get them to come back, it makes good business sense to do so... but therein lies another problem for the european playerbase, the pull to the mythic servers for the latest content 6 months before the euro servers get it.

Almost a year ago was the prydwen database crash and the subsequent poor customer service that saw a lot of players leave.

All of this stuff has had an infulence of the game to date... the attitude of the existing players is also contributing to the fall in numbers... eventually the playerbase will become so small that the cost of running the servers will outweigh the income and the servers will be terminated. It is sadly inevitable.

Freeshards if run by enthusiasts properly will provide a pasture upon which the old retired DAOC'ers can graze on without the need for investing time and effort in PvE if thats not their thing... or without RVR if thats their thing... there is something for everyone from what I see from a quick google search this morning.

Now coming on to the issue raised about manipulation of code... the freeshard information that I have seen this morning has nothing about changing code... there is a seperate launcher that directs the launch program to a specific IP address depending on the server and it executes the existing game.dll file without changing it... it isn't in fact changing code but utilising a certain amount of existing code.

Now another point that was raised... about GOA getting proof... they can't ever hope to gain any proof of anyone using or not using freehsards. Any attempt to monitor the client machines use of other programs when not connecting or connected to the GOA sites would be illegal and as such they could be taken to the european court of human rights for infringement on civil liberties, so I would think a little more before suggesting that GOA are above the law and can do things which clearly they would have no rights (let alone technical ability to do given their track record) to do.

Will be interesting to see this discussion though tbh.

[Xest]

That said what do subscribers pay for? According to the subscription information on the page on the GOA site the subscription is in fact for your "Player Account" with the items and characters contained therein only in effect on "lease" and the characters items and coins remain the property of mythic/GOA respectively.

That's a good point something that hasn't been touched on really thus far actually and is a good way to demonstrate the seperate parts of DAoC and where freeshards fit in. The subscription is for the service and not for the game, you get a license to use the game software when you purchase it originally but the monthly costs are there to grant you access to the service GOA or Mythic provide seperate from the game. Essentially it means that:

Buying the game: Grants you license to execute as and when you wish but you're not allowed to redistribute it

Buying the subscription: Grants you access to Mythic/GOA's game servers

The reason you accept the CoC/EULA when you connect to the servers is because that's what they relate to - the service and not the client, therefore if you break the terms of the CoC/EULA you are open to having your account banned or suspended, this does not however infringe on your right to execute the client still.

Where freeshards fit in is that they are essentially another game service, written from scratch, something which is perfectly legal to write, the DAoC client can then connect to it, again which a user has rights to use (especially as it's free now you don't even have to buy the client to have license to use it), therefore you have two legitimate peices of software interacting. Again the only potential for abuse comes from the scripts that determine gameplay for the freeshard server copying Mythic's intellectual property.

The irony is in this kind of case, it's the modularity of the whole system that's letting MMO providers down legally (i.e. that you can run game.dll to connect to a server without ever needing to modify it or use the launcher), yet modularity is seen as good practice in development. I'd guess MMO providers have made the decision that the benefits of a modular system outweigh those of any potential loss caused by freeshards.

[Belisar]

Is it fair to say that freeshards will have a destructive infulence on the community...

Not sure the influence will be big at the start but it is likely to get relatively larger.

I guess so to a certain extent, however lets take some other destructive influences that have had an effect on the dwindling european populations across the GOA servers <then a discussion on a number of GOA issues>

Are you inferring freeshards are ok because GOA do a crap job anyway ? If freeshards simply speed up the process of people leaving and the income falling away how does that improve the game for me ?

This thread bemuses me. Let's ignore the poinless insults and flames that have been associated with it.

Best case scenario here is 98% of us agree that they are technically not illegal and are not morally wrong. And ??? Where do we go from there ?

We are still left with the issue that this was always going to be a problem for anyone related to the game organisation (GM, E&E). We are told that GM's do not come here anyway and it now seems at least 2 E&E will be spending less (if any) time here as well.

How has this thread just improved my game ?

Compare this to Shark's State of the Realm thread where things got heated but at least have the chance of making things better.

This thread clearly has built some passion, just not sure where any positivity will come.

[Xest]

Are you inferring freeshards are ok because GOA do a crap job anyway ? If freeshards simply speed up the process of people leaving and the income falling away how does that improve the game for me ?

As mentioned previously, the whole reason why using reverse engineering to produce a competing product is legal is because it forces companies to step up their game and hence helps the consumer with a better choice of products. If companies decide not to keep up the game then they suffer the consequences, that is they lose out on subscribers. All the people I know on US have no plans to cancel there subscription despite also playing freeshards, this suggests that they feel Mythic's version of the game is at least worth subscribing too despite the prevalence of freeshards, I can't see euro being much different in that respect.

Best case scenario here is 98% of us agree that they are technically not illegal and are not morally wrong. And ??? Where do we go from there ?

I think most people actually agree they're morally wrong at least in the case where they do pull subscribers away from the game as it sucks for the remaining ones that do pay to play, but again we're not even sure that freeshards are having a real effect on EU game population yet afaik are we?

We are still left with the issue that this was always going to be a problem for anyone related to the game organisation (GM, E&E). We are told that GM's do not come here anyway and it now seems at least 2 E&E will be spending less (if any) time here as well.

How has this thread just improved my game ?

GMs/E&E's not coming here has no effect on your game at all, why even bother bringing it up but to cause trouble? I'm not even sure what loss an E&E that sees reporting fellow players to get them banned for playing on a freeshard as well actually is, surely this just makes the very problem you're complaining about worse as it leads to people being left with no choice but to only play freeshard rather than both after receiving a ban from live?

[Takitothemacs]

Are you inferring freeshards are ok because GOA do a crap job anyway ? If freeshards simply speed up the process of people leaving and the income falling away how does that improve the game for me?

In no way was I "inferring freeshards are ok because GOA do a crap job anyway"

My post was aimed at looking objectively at the issues discussed or perhaps missed in the earlier posts in the thread. I did not say that GOA did a "crap job" but I did draw attention to some of the failings that have let the playerbase down in the past. I am sure beyond doubt that the members of this board know enough on my feelings about GOA to be able to know how that post was objectively written without the real venom that I hold in check about certain issues.

Rather I have a memory for the good and the bad, however in looking at this topic as a whole I was examining the negative influences on what has happened over the years to the playerbase in europe. If we were looking at another topic and looking for the positives I would have cited, the player weddings back in OF where iirc Tare was married in the ring of flowers when all three realms were stood peacefully watching the ceremony, the thidranki event where the three realms joined together to defeat a common enemy, the pig hocky events as organised by Kemor, the specific quests written into the game for the european players by GOA. The only thing lacking in these was the frequency or perhaps the regularity.

But who is to say that the freeshard hosts/devs cannot put together the same quality or even better events on their servers?

See I do have a balanced view...

[Belisar]

I think most people actually agree they're morally wrong at least in the case where they do pull subscribers away from the game as it sucks for the remaining ones that do pay to play, but again we're not even sure that freeshards are having a real effect on EU game population yet afaik are we?

Please do not twist my words around to suit yourself. My point was that EVEN IF we agree they are not morally or legally wrong so what ? I also said that I felt that the impact was likely to be low but get relatively larger.

GMs/E&E's not coming here has no effect on your game at all, why even bother bringing it up but to cause trouble?

I disagree and am not trying to cause trouble. Surely having them here seeing any comments or issues we have is a positive. They might (however small the chance is) just might be able to take something away and help.

I'm not even sure what loss an E&E that sees reporting fellow players to get them banned for playing on a freeshard as well actually is, surely this just makes the very problem you're complaining about worse as it leads to people being left with no choice but to only play freeshard rather than both after receiving a ban from live?

If peeps play freeshards then if they get caught (and the chances may be small) then they may get a ban. People should know that and not wander into it blindly.

I am not sure the ban is for life - I thought someone mentioned 3 days but have no idea tbh.

As for an E&E reporting people I do not feel we can pick and choose. They volunteered to do a job and should do it. We cannot ask for the parts that suit us can we ?

{Edit} Btw Takit - thanks for clarifying.

[Xest]

Please do not twist my words around to suit yourself.

I was hardly intentionally twisting, really no need to start getting protective, hopefully the flames have passed in this thread by now and I'm not trying to incite anything, suggesting someone is twisting someone elses words is how problems start, perhaps it was just that I read the first part and didn't think about the second part when responding?

I disagree and am not trying to cause trouble. Surely having them here seeing any comments or issues we have is a positive. They might (however small the chance is) just might be able to take something away and help.

Well thus far they've been deeply against any comments that go against GOA even in the slightest without considering why these comments are made in the first place, that doesn't help anyone. Instead of trying to silence any discussion of freeshards why not look at why people may prefer to play on freeshards in the first place?

If peeps play freeshards then if they get caught (and the chances may be small) then they may get a ban. People should know that and not wander into it blindly.

I don't dispute that tbh, it's fair enough and I think people do know the risks. If they still play despite those risks freeshards are obviously doing something right.

I am not sure the ban is for life - I thought someone mentioned 3 days but have no idea tbh.

Probably 3 days first offence, permanent after that at a guess.

As for an E&E reporting people I do not feel we can pick and choose. They volunteered to do a job and should do it. We cannot ask for the parts that suit us can we ?

As it's a volunteer job they most certainly can choose, if decreasing the playerbase by getting people banned is less of an issue for them than keeping the E&E title that's fair enough but they can't then complain about decreasing player base when they're directly responsible.