Jesus Camp Trailer

[Xest]

Your not answering my question. Where is reason? Where can we see it? What does it look like?

I've told you reason is a natural phenomena present in our brains. I suppose theoretically you could see it as a series of neurons working inside our heads if you really must treat it as a tangible object. It's getting to the point however where I'd question whether it's lacking from some people's minds...

[Kallima]

No one said reason exists outside of people, quite the opposite, it is a trait that comes natural to humans and likely stems back to the natural insticts required to survive. We know that just going round killing each other is bad for the species, we know that stealing from someone else will lead to conflict, look at the people who still, people who are desperate and have no other path. Of course there are exceptions but they are just that, exceptions.

Take the above and compare it to the animal world, does a wolf attack another wolf? Not unless it's desperate, does a wolf attack a human? not unless it's desperate (or has rabies). Does a wolf steal food from another Wolf? Only if there isn't abundance enough for it to find it's own. Even the fox outside my house wont attack cats because although it could kill one for food it knows that it wouldn't be the easiest or most sensible target. Of course it's more complex than that, there are situations where the weak maybe preyed upon and so forth but the fact is many of the moral principles defined by religion, which in turn are often based purely on common sense, which in turn is just that a sense, something natural to us (and other species). Humans are of course more advanced than this so whilst the animal examples are rather clear cut it's not always the case with humans but the point is that religion hasn't exactly provided anything that doesn't occur naturally anyway.

Do you think the wolves need to check their bible before they decide whether it's right to kill one of their own, before they decide who to "elect" as the alpha male, before they decide whether they should steal another wolf's food?

In a rush because I'm going out, but there are an awful lot of examples in the animal kingdom of what in humans would be regarded as unethical behaviour, so I don't think you can regard ethics as a natural universal rule in the animal kingdom. Some behaviour is clearly logical out of pure self interest/survival, not necessarily ethics. Where behaviour is for the good of others rather than self you can argue its ethics, but this does not seem universal in the animal kingdom.

Having had to physically separate two robins, one of which had the other pinned down and was beating it to death, I'm not totally convinced that animals are always deeply caring of others.

[Sharkith]

I've told you reason is a natural phenomena present in our brains. I suppose theoretically you could see it as a series of neurons working inside our heads if you really must treat it as a tangible object. It's getting to the point however where I'd question whether it's lacking from some people's minds...

Why I am asking is because no matter how hard scientists have looked Xest they have not been able to locate reason in the brain. I know this because I work with neuroscientists and psychologists you know people in the field. All they can do is indicate that certain neural activity happens in correlation with certain reasoned responses. Not one of them. Not one. Would say reason is 'in the brain' as you put it.

In fact most philosophers gave up that idea over four centuries ago. I think mostly because they felt that language and the sign were probably the best place to locate 'reason'.That writing was the beginning of reason.

No matter you seem to want to cling to your organic essentialism. I think you are using it to hide form certain points like for example the notion of ideas and where they belong and emerge from. I think you are simply hiding from reason.

[Xest]

In a rush because I'm going out, but there are an awful lot of examples in the animal kingdom of what in humans would be regarded as unethical behaviour, so I don't think you can regard ethics as a natural universal rule in the animal kingdom. Some behaviour is clearly logical out of pure self interest/survival, not necessarily ethics. Where behaviour is for the good of others rather than self you can argue its ethics, but this does not seem universal in the animal kingdom.

Having had to physically separate two robins, one of which had the other pinned down and was beating it to death, I'm not totally convinced that animals are always deeply caring of others.

No which is exactly why I reiterated the point of it not being that simple. Black widows eating their mates for example is rather obscure, but my underlying point was more that these kind of concepts do exist in the animal kingdom - it's not the same for every species certainly and sometimes an animal of a species goes a bit screwy and attacks it's own when others don't (this is similar to the fact you get the odd phsycopath once in a while in the human world) for the most part.

[Lieva]

But that makes absolutely no sense Banana. But then again, im sure religion would do what it always do - come up with some fantastic story why their god decided to create another planet. Abit like with the dinosaur remains (it has to be planted by Satan..no doubt about it! LOL)

Oh btw - how the hell can you belive what the bible says when it was written by man and not your god? Especially if you check when it was written and how it was put together.

Edit: 300-400 years after your Jesus death...check history, you cant even be sure what books says about 10 years back..so 1600 sounds waaaay off.

/Ankh

well

why should there be anything bout other planets/lifeforms in the bible?
afaik the bible is about God and how we treat other people on this planet
when we get *that* right then we can think of other beings
I find it unlikely that we are the only beings in the universe - its just incredible to think such a thing.

(however technically you have to assume that if the bible is incorrect and evolution is true that we are alone in the universe as the chance of another planet spawning life like earth did has to be about a billion to 1)

As for believing the bible.

Well most things on this planet are written by men - should we disbelieve those?

However it is hard to believe certain things when it seems that someone seems intent on trying to confuse people.
Why do certain texts which were around at the time - get ignored?
I dont really understand that bit..

Also - you have to remember
the bible was never ment to turn people into believers.
Its more of a handbook for people who already believe in God.
Half the books in the bible were written to churches already established and another third was purely hymm/praise

[<ankh>]

Black widows eating their mates for example is rather obscure

Sidenote:
actually, thats something most spiders do

/Ankh

[<ankh>]

Well most things on this planet are written by men - should we disbelieve those?

Never claimed we should, but most people written by men are when they tell their own opinions rather than somebody else. The Bible on the other hand is telling us that your god did this and that. And its put together long after mankind was created according to your religion (I guess I have to point out that its YOUR god or YOUR religion or else gandelf will start his shit again about converting..unfortunatly it makes the text way longer).

I would also like to ask you the same question as I've asked others in this thread (but still no reply from anyone). What makes you belive that your religion is right and the others are wrong?

/Ankh

[<ankh>]

Right - almost time for school so I better stop with this discussion for now. Ill check into the other posts I never read fully once I get home. But now - time for extremly loud music and get dressed

/Ankh

[Xest]

Why I am asking is because no matter how hard scientists have looked Xest they have not been able to locate reason in the brain. I know this because I work with neuroscientists and psychologists you know people in the field. All they can do is indicate that certain neural activity happens in correlation with certain reasoned responses. Not one of them. Not one. Would say reason is 'in the brain' as you put it.

In fact most philosophers gave up that idea over four centuries ago. I think mostly because they felt that language and the sign were probably the best place to locate 'reason'.That writing was the beginning of reason.

No matter you seem to want to cling to your organic essentialism. I think you are using it to hide form certain points like for example the notion of ideas and where they belong and emerge from. I think you are simply hiding from reason.

Ah I see, so we're getting that desperate are we that we're basing arguments on whether or not someone is a neuroscientist and can answer conclusively which part of the brain is responsible for reason and such?

Where does god exist in the universe, where can I see him, what does he look like? Oh wait you can't answer that so he obviously doesn't exist. You're right Sharkith, that logic is brilliant and conclusive proof for everything.

Seriously though, Steven Pinker would disagree with your comments on the human brain being responsible for the common sense ideas but then, I guess he only has a Ph.D . in psychology from Harvard so what would someone like him know eh? The fact is you're basing your argument on us conclusively knowing that the brain isn't responsible for reason, the problem is that that is by absolutely no means conclusive knowledge, it is incorrect for you to assume this and therefore naive to base an argument upon something that we're not sure about either way.

[Gandelf]

Fair enough. But the question in that case is - do you belive in that part? If so, does religious people select the stories the want to belive in and ditch the rest?
Speaking of it - why have christians decided to belive in the bible? Apart from the parts that are indeed historial (names, places etc etc) are there anything that says that the rest is true? The answer is no (apart from the "I feel it in my heart" standard answer). So my question to you Sharkith/Gandelf is - what makes you belive that christianity is THE true religion?



Gandelf...how many muslims have you seen in the discussion so far? Correct me if im wrong, but most of the people in this thread live in christian countries - in that case its a natural choice in this discussion.
Oh btw - there is a question further back which I have asked you 4 times and you still havent replied to. (http://www.prydwen.net/showpost.php?p=95493&postcount=67)

Edit: I don't doubt you feel your religion is the right choice, im not the one to say its not the right one for you. My point is, if you had grown up in a muslim land - dont you think that you would claim allah was the only one? Or if you had lived in asia you could be a follower of Buddah.

/Ankh

I choose not to answer that question. Not because I can't, but because I know what everyone will say if I do answer it. It just ain't worth the hassle or risking infuriating a number of people. That's my answer to the question you say you've asked four times. It's the only answer you'll get, for which I humbly apologise.