[quote="Sharkith"]p.s. what do you think of the emerging news that the bombers may well have came from the UK? Surely this puts a whole different view on the idyllic country that survived through this with it's 'war' spirit? ]
It certainly would affect ChildOfKains idea of throwing out all illigal immigrants..
/Ankh
Terror Bomb in London
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Ankh Morpork
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Ankh Morpork
(well, you might have done that now, but you didnt bother earlier 
)[quote="Sharkith"]nerf work I have to leave the office for a few days data collection so sorry I can't continue this discussion right now which is very interesting. I might be able to post again on Friday so please continue.
I know your playing devil's advocate but in so doing all you are doing is being forced to assert that you believe the government's spin. I am not so sure that I would want to adopt that position nor would I think it is really the best position simply because it is on the opposite side of the media. I would be much more cautious than you in trying to assert that by doing so you are approaching the 'truth'. I do hold back a bit and I therefore do not try to accept received wisdom - it is also part of my training to not accept face value explanations.
It is very elusive for you to state a) that your playing devil's advocate and then b) that you have to have both sides of the story to know what really went on. Either that means that you are sitting on the fence or that maybe you like me really don't have a clue either. Wouldn't it be better to say so though?
Sharkith
p.s. what do you think of the emerging news that the bombers may well have came from the UK? Surely this puts a whole different view on the idyllic country that survived through this with it's 'war' spirit? ]
Again I'm not saying I beleive the goverments spin in the slightest, I am however saying I don't totally beleive the medias spin also, I've said numerous times already we'll never know how much Tony really did and didn't know but I have said that IF he didn't know then you can't really blame Tony himself.
Honestly, with regards to the bombers coming from the UK, I pretty much guessed - I live in Yorkshire myself, about 20mins from Leeds and about 30mins from Bradford, I've seen first hand how many Pakistanis and Arabs there are in Yorkshire that hate England and hate the English and various other parts of Western life, because of this Yorkshire is rife with racism and it's no suprise that hatred grows for each other on both sides here such that it could breed such extremists. What does bother me is that one of the bombers went to Afghanistan last year for a few months with some friends, now I have to question, if someone went to a place like Afghanistan, not as media, not as an aid worker then there has to be some suspicion, without meaning to sound racist (even though I guess it is to be fair), but, especially if they're a muslim Arab/Pakistani. It's a hard issue to discuss, purely because I'll no doubt get branded racist, however the fact is that the biggest real threat right now is from Pakistani/Arab muslims and as racist as it sounds it IS undeniably the truth - of course that's definetely not to say we can't trust all of them, please don't take it that way in the slightest. I think what bothers me most though is that we were told the bomber went to Afghanistan with some friends - it does kinda leave me wondering, who/where these friends are now.
Our Arab/Asian communities in England are just too segregated from the rest of the UK that's the problem, I think both sides are equally to blame, but the problem just gets worse and worse and it's hard to see how those societies will ever integrate in with the rest of us and if they don't it's hard to see how everyone will ever trust them, after all pretty much everyone is naturally racist to some extent - it's a fear of the unknown and that's what makes it so hard for the seperate communities to integrate in the first place, before any of the more concious racism began. In this respect, whilst wrong of a lot of people to think we should "just kick them all out" there has to be some understanding as to why they say it and many more people seem to think it than they'll publicly admit - you can't just ignore that feeling and say "stop being racist" as our overly politically correct society does today, you have to look at why that feeling is there and try and resolve it.
I don't know what the solution is - it's hard to combat something that is essentially just human nature for the most part but a solution is the only way we'll ever understand each others communities and hopefully reach a point where no one feels the needs to attack the other culture - particularly to this extreme.
The only good thing that can really have come from this revelation is hopefully that it will have bred far more awareness amongst parents, parents of all cultures in fact that for all they know their kids could well be involved in this level of extremism. Hopefully parents will be able to prevent this kind of tragedy being repeated by their kids.
I know your playing devil's advocate but in so doing all you are doing is being forced to assert that you believe the government's spin. I am not so sure that I would want to adopt that position nor would I think it is really the best position simply because it is on the opposite side of the media. I would be much more cautious than you in trying to assert that by doing so you are approaching the 'truth'. I do hold back a bit and I therefore do not try to accept received wisdom - it is also part of my training to not accept face value explanations.
It is very elusive for you to state a) that your playing devil's advocate and then b) that you have to have both sides of the story to know what really went on. Either that means that you are sitting on the fence or that maybe you like me really don't have a clue either. Wouldn't it be better to say so though?
Sharkith
p.s. what do you think of the emerging news that the bombers may well have came from the UK? Surely this puts a whole different view on the idyllic country that survived through this with it's 'war' spirit? ]
Again I'm not saying I beleive the goverments spin in the slightest, I am however saying I don't totally beleive the medias spin also, I've said numerous times already we'll never know how much Tony really did and didn't know but I have said that IF he didn't know then you can't really blame Tony himself.
Honestly, with regards to the bombers coming from the UK, I pretty much guessed - I live in Yorkshire myself, about 20mins from Leeds and about 30mins from Bradford, I've seen first hand how many Pakistanis and Arabs there are in Yorkshire that hate England and hate the English and various other parts of Western life, because of this Yorkshire is rife with racism and it's no suprise that hatred grows for each other on both sides here such that it could breed such extremists. What does bother me is that one of the bombers went to Afghanistan last year for a few months with some friends, now I have to question, if someone went to a place like Afghanistan, not as media, not as an aid worker then there has to be some suspicion, without meaning to sound racist (even though I guess it is to be fair), but, especially if they're a muslim Arab/Pakistani. It's a hard issue to discuss, purely because I'll no doubt get branded racist, however the fact is that the biggest real threat right now is from Pakistani/Arab muslims and as racist as it sounds it IS undeniably the truth - of course that's definetely not to say we can't trust all of them, please don't take it that way in the slightest. I think what bothers me most though is that we were told the bomber went to Afghanistan with some friends - it does kinda leave me wondering, who/where these friends are now.
Our Arab/Asian communities in England are just too segregated from the rest of the UK that's the problem, I think both sides are equally to blame, but the problem just gets worse and worse and it's hard to see how those societies will ever integrate in with the rest of us and if they don't it's hard to see how everyone will ever trust them, after all pretty much everyone is naturally racist to some extent - it's a fear of the unknown and that's what makes it so hard for the seperate communities to integrate in the first place, before any of the more concious racism began. In this respect, whilst wrong of a lot of people to think we should "just kick them all out" there has to be some understanding as to why they say it and many more people seem to think it than they'll publicly admit - you can't just ignore that feeling and say "stop being racist" as our overly politically correct society does today, you have to look at why that feeling is there and try and resolve it.
I don't know what the solution is - it's hard to combat something that is essentially just human nature for the most part but a solution is the only way we'll ever understand each others communities and hopefully reach a point where no one feels the needs to attack the other culture - particularly to this extreme.
The only good thing that can really have come from this revelation is hopefully that it will have bred far more awareness amongst parents, parents of all cultures in fact that for all they know their kids could well be involved in this level of extremism. Hopefully parents will be able to prevent this kind of tragedy being repeated by their kids.
OFFICER XEST - PROTECTING YOU AGAINST FORUM CRIME
Che Xefan, el presidente.
Che Xefan, el presidente.
Interesting statement, but I fear we're straying once again into an area where I'd like to see something to back up what you're suggesting. Do you have any facts to support this otherwise free-floating notion? Or is this simply further US bashing?Ankh Morpork wrote:...and lets not forget that the U.N was overrun by the Yanks totally.
Because just on its own, the only response I can give is no, the United Nations is not totally overrun by the United States. Further, there are four other permanent, veto wielding members of the Security Council, China, France, Russia, and the UK.
If you'd like to suggest otherwise, useful data might be voting records that indicate the US has had unanimous acceptance of every resolution they have sponsored [they haven't], an accounting of how the US was able to push through the second resolution on the latest Iraq war [they weren't], or details of how the US removed the Secretary General Kofi Annan for what was perceived to be his involvement in the oil-for-food programme scandal [they didn't].
It is true that the US hosts the UN in New York and has been the largest financial contributor every year since it was founded in 1945, but I think you'll find that recently the relationship between the US and the UN has been anything but one of he who pays the piper calling the tune.
Finolin, 50th Elven Void Eldritch ML10 Convoker
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Felia, 50th Celt Bard ML10 Sojourner
Fert, 50th Sylvan Arboreal Animist ML10 Convoker
Finality, 50th Sylvan Valewalker ML10 Battlemaster
Finoshar, 50th Shar Hero ML10 Battlemaster
Findrid, 50th Celt Druid ML10 Perfector
Fiat, 50th Celt Druid ML10 Perfector
Finesty, 50th Shar Mentalist ML10 Warlord
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Ankh Morpork
The U.N's weapon inspectors did say they had found nothing and still they were ignored. You want quotes or is that good enough? (hey, I can find you quotes if it makes you happy 
)
Seems to me like you can't accept anyone saying anything bad about the U.S..but ofcourse, I could be wrong
And speaking about the veto weilding members, it's about time they removed their privilage.
Edit: Since you call it US bashing...you know, its not bashing just cos I say negative things about your country...I can do the same about my own country if that makes you happy
Edit2: Critics of the U.S. invasion of Iraq have emphasized the failure to find any weapons of mass destruction and the lack of evidence to prove an Iraqi connection to al Qaeda and the 9-11 attacks. However, an even more compelling issue is often overlooked--that the invasion of Iraq was a flagrant violation of international law, since it was undertaken without Security Council authorization and therefore in violation of the UN Charter. As a result it was illegal, and those who carried it out can be held responsible for war crimes.
/Ankh
)Seems to me like you can't accept anyone saying anything bad about the U.S..but ofcourse, I could be wrong
I do know how the U.N is run mate. This was nothing they voted for, it was just reports by their weapon inspectors which should have been enough.Finolin wrote:Because just on its own, the only response I can give is no, the United Nations is not totally overrun by the United States. Further, there are four other permanent, veto wielding members of the Security Council, China, France, Russia, and the UK.
And speaking about the veto weilding members, it's about time they removed their privilage.
Edit: Since you call it US bashing...you know, its not bashing just cos I say negative things about your country...I can do the same about my own country if that makes you happy
Edit2: Critics of the U.S. invasion of Iraq have emphasized the failure to find any weapons of mass destruction and the lack of evidence to prove an Iraqi connection to al Qaeda and the 9-11 attacks. However, an even more compelling issue is often overlooked--that the invasion of Iraq was a flagrant violation of international law, since it was undertaken without Security Council authorization and therefore in violation of the UN Charter. As a result it was illegal, and those who carried it out can be held responsible for war crimes.
/Ankh